Newspaper Page Text
Savannah morning News.
, ESTABLISHED 1850. I
>j, R. ESTILL, Editor ami Proprietor.(
GOULD FACES HIS FOES.
MAN Y OF POWDERLA’9 points
CONTRADICTED.
No Recognition of the Knlfirhts or Labor
* Kvervthine Lert to Hoxie—Compel
tion Declared Not the Life of Trade-
Tlie Wizard Counts Arbitration One of
Ilia Hobbies —Public Nature of Rail
road Positions—A a Innocenl * a Lamb
About Wall Street Ways—Mr. Hop.
kins Charges Stock Speculating on tlie
Part.of Officials of the Knights.
Washington, Aorll 22. —The doors of
the roomol the House Committee on Flec
tions were kept closed this morning until
the special committee investigating the
causes and extent of the labor troubles in
the West were prepared to proceed with
the examination of Jay Gould. Across
the ball,outside of the room, was stretched
a barrier, beyond which were allowed to
pass only the members of the committee,
representatives ot the Knights of Labor,
several gentlemen accompanying Air.
Gould, including his counsel, Gen.
Swayne, Vice President Hopkins, news
paper men, and several members of Con
gress, who were animated with curiosity
to hear the testimony of the great finan
cier. As that gentleman arose to take the
oath, all eyes were fixed upon him, and
his response “1 do,” was given in a low
tone.
BKGIN'NING THE EXAMINATION.
The Chairman —It is the desire of the
committee. Sir. Gould, that you give us
testimony in respect to the investigation
in which we are engaged, and for a time I
leave the examination to Mr. Riirnes.
The witness wished to know the scope
of the resolution under which the com
mittee was acting.
Air. Burnes stated that the select com
mittee had been authorized by the House
of Representatives to investigate the
causes and extent of the disturbed condi
tion now existing between railroad cor
lorat!ons engaged in carrying inter-State
commerce and their employes in the
States of Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Ar
kansas and Texas.
Mr.Gould—lt is true that the Missouri
Pacific runs through some ot these states,
but, at this time, we have no difference
with cur men aud are 6trictly speaking
not within the rule of that resolution.
But 1 will be very glad to spend the time
in talking to the committee, though I
hardly think they want to spend their
valuable time in talking to me.
THE WITNESS NOT CALM.
Being requested, however, to proceed,
Mr. Gould went on to give his testimony
in a low voice, which was generally calm,
but which now and then trembled slightly,
as though it were shaken with excite
ment or emotion. At times be removed
his gold rimmed spectacles and paused
in bis speech, ns he carefully wiped them
with his handkerchief. Behind nim sat
Gen. Swayue, who relieved him ot the
work of reading printed matter and whom
be nowand then consulted in an under
tone.
“On April 15,” he began, “we had in
the transportation department; 3,307, in
the machinery department 997, in the en
gineer and firemen department 1,832, in
the car department, 603, in the roud de
partment 3,556, in the bridge department
645 and at our terminal points 897 men—
a total of 10,737 men—not including our
general officers. The operations ot our
road (and 1 speak from thirty years’ex
perience! are carried on in a perfectly
regular and orderly way. The trains are
all run and the business we were char
tered to do is being transacted regularly.
Here is a dispatch I received since I left
New York:
SHOWS THE BUSINESS DONE.
“This represents the business that was
tone up to 12:35 o'clock of this day, April
22: ‘290 freight trains moved yesterday,
containing 4.647 loads, an increase of 74
trains and 1.537 loads compared with the
same day of last, year. Quiet at all points
mi the line. Trains are doing well.’ 1
submit to the committee whether we come
tvithin t he ruling of the committee.”
Mr. Burnes—l believe that this ques
tion has been substantially passed upon
by the committee, and it is the intention
M the committee that we investigate all
he circumstances and facts relating to
die troubles, and therefore we propose to
a \amine you with regard to the proceed
ngs antecedent, to the resumption of busi
ness.
Tne Witness—Well, 1 thought it was
Billy proper that I should state that fact
to the committee that at the date of the
resolution we were operating the road In
a regular and formal manner and per
forming all the duties our charter called
tor.
GOULD’S IDENTITY.
Mr. Burnes—Please state your resi
dence. age and occupation.
The Wltness—l reside in New York city.
lam 49 years of age. 1 am President of
the Missouri Pacific, and have been since
1*79.
Mr. Burnes—Wp would like for you
now to inform ns if there has been any in
terruption to commerce passing over the
lines of the road von represent in Mis
souri, Illinois, Kansas, Atkansas and
Texas, and if so what interruption, and
bo far as you know the cause of that in
ter rti pi ion.
The Witness—Do you want mo to state
•imply what I know, or lams that come
'o my knowledge as President ol the cor-
Duration? because 1 ought to state to the
committee that I left New York on Jan. 5
• v i lii my family, on my yacht, for a crtiis--
n the West. Indies. I relumed to New
■ "rkon March 23. The strike occurred
A hile I was away, and my knowledge
-‘bines from such official inlormation as I
received as President of the compauy
since my return,
FROM OFFICIAL INFORMATION.
Mr. Burnes—We understand that neo*
Hsarlly you will bo compelled to give
™ an y things from official information,
ton will, ol course, in testifying dlscrlmi
li,te that which you know from that
A,| icli you have from "fib ial Information,
“s would iliio you to coover the whole
fbhiid and give us not only what you
"how. hut what you itavo reason to he
neve.
■'The first recognition,” proceeded
vritn esS( “which onr company
ns far us 1 know, of
■he Knights of Labor eamo out of a strike
j n April of last year, I was away at tint
“ttie and until August. In August Mr.
'""ileriy omne to New York with the j
’TooiUeo, That was the first tune 1 nad
' "fitting to do with him. Ho stated their
' ,l,v , which was that part of the road
1 w as in the hands of receivers should
'•‘'''state a largo number of men who were
KnigliU of Labor who had left the em
r jV'Of the company, and whoso placos
“hd been largely ttlied.
IO IDEAS OF 1118 TOWER.
“dis impression seemed to be that I
nraetioallw controlled ail tho railroads In
‘ ol ‘Lbited Btnte*. and that the sun did
'"’t rise nor the moon set without some
•fiction or mine. 1 had uothinif to do
w Rh the road. 1 explained to them. While
this interview was goiugon my time came
to leave. 1 turned to the committee and
® a "gentlemen, has the Missouri
I acibo lived up to her agreement with
you? 1 want to know that.’ They said,
‘las; you have.’ ‘Well, then,’ said
1 . ,‘‘ want it now understood
that it you have any grievance hereafter
against the Missouri Pacific you shall not
strike, but you will come to me, man
fashion, and tve win talk it over and set
r,, Fhey agrt ed to that, and 1 said,
<>oou-by’ and left. 1 had no further com
munication with them. I went off on a
yachting cruise In January, relying on
the good faith of that arrangement being
carried out.
STRUCK WHILE HK WAS AWAY.
“I bis strike came ogjwhile L was away.
Ihe 1 exas Pacific road was in the hands
ol the United States Court, and not under
my control at all. In the course of busi
ness, the receivers discharged a man
named Hall. Ido not know who he was;
1 had uever heard oi him; but that act
was taken as a pretext, and the sole pre
text, for the strike on our road. Our
men told Mr. Hoxie that they had no
grievance. They were ordered to strike,
and that was ttieonly thing they could do.
When the strike occurred Mr. Hopkins,
our vice president, who was present at
that agreement in August, naturally took
it up with M r Powderly. t here was a strike
on our road contrary to agreement, and
he penned a dispatch to Mr. Powderly just
as coolly as a business man would do.”
HOPKINS’ DISPATCH.
The witness then read the dispatch sent
by Mr. Hopkins to Mr. Powderly on
March 6, in which he informed Mr. Pow
derly of tlie strike, stating that the men
have no grievance, and expressing a wish
to talk the matter over with him. Two days
afterwards Mr. Powderly telegraphs
that he saw from the public press that the
strike was caused by tho discharge of
Hall, and asking if he could be reinstated.
Mr. Hopkins replied that Hall was em
ployed by the Texas Pacific and not by the
Missouri Pacific, and that the latter road
had no control over the receivers. “To
this message,” continued the witness, “no
answer was vouchsafed. The Eastern
offices of the great railroads are their
financial depositories. They have noth
ing to do with labor. Mr. Hoxie bad con
trol of that anyway, but the board in
order to make it doubly distinct put it in
his hands, and he managed it from that
time until after my return.”
THE MEN WHO STRUCK.
“Let me explain to the committee what
the strike was liiat took Dlace in March,
and what the effect would have been if it
had been simply a strike. We had at the
date of the strike 14,315 employes—
Knights ot Labor. The strikers numbered
3,717, but they were not men who were nec
essary to the operation of the road. They
were men in the machine shops, men
along the track, switchmen,men who per
form the lower duties of the railroad;
that if the 3,717 men had struck and lett
the premises we would not have
missed a train, our business would
have gone along as regularly as
clockwork, but following the leaving of
our employment, ‘What did they do?’”
As he asked this question, for the lirst
tfm* rtnrfffg the course of his statement,
Mr. Gould raised bis voice and showed
symptoms of excitement, and it was with
energy that he proceeded to answer his
own query.
SEIZED THE ROADS.
“They exercised more than the right of
eminent domain. They took the St. Louis,
Sedalia, Atchison, Kansas City, Parsons,
Fort Worth, Little K ick and Texarkana
divisions. Tuey took forcible possession
of them anil said, ‘No man shall run a
train of that road.’ That is what they
said. ‘Wliat did Mr. Hoxie do?’ Uesaid:
‘Tney have taken possession of
our road. We have got no earn
ings now,’ and he was forced to write
an address to all the men suspending pay
ments, and thus 10.000 men who were
loyal to the company, who could run our
trains every day, were deprived of their
work—ol their power to earn their wages.
Thai was what followed the strike —seiz-
ure—you can call it by no other word
forcible seizure—something that the Czar
of Russia would hesitate to do with his
millions ot soldiers behind him.”
POWDERI.Y ENTERS.
Mr. Hoxie’s address to the meu was
then rend by Gan. Swayne. As he was
reading It Mr. Powderly entered the room
and secured a position opposite Mr.
Gould.
TheCualrman—What was Hall charged
with? Wbat crime had iie committed?
What was the reason ot bis discharge?
in response to this question Gen.
Swayne, at the mutest of Mr. Gould, read
a statement issued by Receiver Brown
declaring that I j all was incompetent, and
that ne was disenargeil for absenting him
self without leave. 1!" also read a circu
lar issued by the Missouri Pacific on
Marcli9,notify inga!! persons who bad quit
the employ of the company since March
5 Hi at their names were no longer upon
the roils, and that they must leave the
premises of the eoinpanv, and also a
notice of March 10 advertising for me
chanics and laborers to fill the places of
the strikers, and stating that ail good and
C"iui>eteiit men would bo employed re
gardless of tlieir present or past connec
tion with the Knights of Libor.
THE RESORT TO VIOLENCE.
The reading being ended. Mr. Gould
proceeded: “ This brings tlie status of tho
strike down to March 10. At that time
the strikers had taken possession of the
line. When we undertook to run
trains, they would ‘kill’ the engines, and
il that were not hiiill dent, iboy would
uncouple cars or would assault trainmen
who undertook to get trains out. Day
alter day we were met by that opposition.
Tin n the two Governors of Missouri and
Kansas, who had been infiltrators of the
agreement. Of M uch. 1885, under winch
wo had been acting, were called on to
meet at Kansas City. There they heard
everything winch the strikers had to say.
After hearing both sides, they prepared a
formal report, which was published.”
THE COMPANY UPHELD.
The report was read by G u. Nwaync.
It declares that the strike of March, 1886,
was not based on violation by the com
plin-, of iho terms of the agreement of
March, In*s. Gen. Swavne also read in
the same connection letters ol .Mr. Hoxie
to the two Governors, stating that good
and competent men would be employed
by the compauy without regard to their
past or pr-H'-nt relations to tho company
or to tho Kn'ghts of Labor. He also read
tho reply of the Knights of Labor to the
two Governors. Mr. Gould then
resumed Ilia statement. He said:
“Hint correspondence shows pretty
conclusively the truth of the proverb,
that you wav lead a horse to a watering
trough, but cannot make him drink. Our
shops were upon for men to go to work,
and If they did not go it was not our fault.
1 returned to New York on March 28.
THE INTERVIEW WITH POWDERLY.
“Shortly after mv return correspondence
was opened between Mr. I’owderly and
myself. 1 will not stop to read it now.
When Mr. McDowell brought the last
letter 1 told bim I would meet Mr. l’ow
derly I as an individual and he a* an
individual—and that I would have a trank
SAVANNAH. FRIDAY, APRIL 23. 1886.
talk with him on the whole subject. He
brought Mr. I’owderly to mv house on
Sunday, March 28. At the time ol that
iuterview the road was in full operation
at all points except Fort Worth, Tex.,
and l’arsons. Kan. I met Mr. I’owderly
and Mr. McDowell at my house on Sun
da v and had a iratik talk with them. Mr.
J’owderly’s secret circular (so-called)
had been issued, and my motive in seeing
him wa9 to brace him up, because tbe sen
timents expressed in that circular were so
different from the acts of the association
thatl thought he needed bracingup.
NEEDED BRACING DP.
“They brought up the question
of arbitration, which had been
covered Dy the correspondence,
and which 1 had very firmly
declined. I never was more positive in
my life than I was when l made that de
clination. We talked up to 2 o’clock |my
dinner hour) and I told Mr. Fowderlv anil
Mr. MoDowell to come back that night.
They came hack at night and we resumed
our talk. Mr. Powderly said to me:
those men out there (1 want to talk with
vou frankly) are in rebellion to our order.
They struck without cause, and I have it
in contemplation to-morrow to vindicate
myself by issuing an order taking away
their charter.’
GOULD ALSO FRANK.
“I said: ‘Mr. Powderly,you have been
so frank with me, uow’l will fie equally
frank with you. Now I will read you a
dispatch which I have prepared to send
to Mr. Hoxie. I get down town to-mor
row morning at 9:80 o’clock, and I will
send it then.’ I took out of my pocket
and read to him my dispatch to Mr.
Hoxie, directing preference in employ
ment to be given to late employes, wheth
er Knights of Laboror not. Now Ido not
know how that can be twisted
so as to make it mean something
different from what It says.
1 read it over to Mr. Powderly just as
distinctly as I have read it to the com
mittee. Mr. Powderly said: ‘I approve
of that, and it will help me if you will
give me a copy of it.’ I said: ‘Certainly,
I will do that.’ That brought our inter
view to a close. I went upstairs and
copied the dispatch in a note addressed to
Mr. I’owderly and gave it to Mr. McDow
ell to deliver to him.
NO RIGHT TO PUBLISH IT.
“There was no right on the part of Mr.
McDowell or ot Mr. Powderly to give the
dispatch to the public until 1 bad put it
into Mr. Hoxie’s nanils. They went out
of town and changed the whole pro
gramme. The next morning the newspa
pers came out publishing this, and say
ing on the part of Mr. Powderly, ‘Mr.
Gould has consented to our plan of arbi
tration.’ That tvas published broad
cast. It was utterly untrue—
utterly untrue. As for the quest on of
arbitration I have always been in favor of
arbitration. It has been rather a kind of
hobby of mine, and therefore 1 said in my
dispatch to Mr. Hoxie ‘We see no objec
tion to arbitration.’”
THE LETTER OF INSTRUCTIONS.
Mr. Gould hre read stenographic notes
of the interview between him and Mr.
Powderly and he continued: “I believe
TTTSTTn the investigation yesterday, there
was reference to a letter o! instructions.
There was no letter sent except the Pow
derly letter. What Mr. Hoxie meant by
the letter of instructions was my letter
addressed to Mr. Powderly which tie, saw
in the newspapers that morning. Of
course he referr dto that. I want to say
very distinctly that there have been no
instructions issued other than those em
bodied in that letter. They have been
lived up to by the company from Mat time
to this.”
Mr. Crain—You Bay distinctly that there
were no secret instructions?
NO SECRET instructions.
Mr. Gould—There were no secret in
structions. On the contrary, we have
lived right up to my letter to Mr. Pow
derly, notwithstanding all the provoca
tion we have received.
Mr. Gould here read various telegrams
and correspondence which have been
already made public, including the pro
clamation of March 29, issued hv the
Kxecutive Board of the district assem
blies at St. Louis, congratulating the
Knights of Labor'on their victory, and on
their maubood and tl.e fortitude shown
by them. He said that was the address
which was issued on March 29 when
everything seemed to he lovely. Tbe
next address that was issued by them
was one issued on April 0 address, and
to the workingmen of the wo-ld Mr.
Gould read tho address in a tone of sar
casm, but not without visible emotion.
It was one in which he is spoken of as the
giant of incorporated wealth, every dol
lar of which was built, on blood, injustice
and outrage. He said: “That is the re
s non sc which three assemblies of the
Knights of Labor made to our continuing
hand of fellowship which ws had held out
to them.
OPERATING THE ROAD.
We commenced operating our road, as
l said, when I met Mr. Powderly. On
Sunday the whole Bvstem was in opera
tion, except at Parsons and Fort Worth.
Our earnings for the first week of April
were oquallto tbe same week last year,and
the earnings ol the second week in April
were 3d,000 more than In the corresoond
ing week last year. From that, as I said
at the beginning of my remarks, it seemed
to tne Shat the resolution under which the
committee Is acting does not really apply
to tbe Missouri Pacific railroad.
Mr. Burnes—Have you any other docu
ments that yott wish to submit?
Mr. Gould—i bavo received several of
this sort. I only rend this one because it
is an order emanating Ironi three lodges
that govern tbe Missouri Pacific system.
The Chairman—We will accept that as
a specimen of workingmen’s literature.
URGED TO PUSH I HE STRIKE.
Mr. Gould —l have just received a tele
gram from Mr. Hoxie stating that tbotH.
Louis capers to-day publlsn this dispatch
sent from here yesterday: “Push the
strike. Wo have plenty of money io carry
it through. Jonn Haves.” Hayes is, 1
believe, one of the Executive Committee
of the Knightsof l.afior. He is the same
man who addressed the dispatch to me
holding mo responsible for the murders
in Hast Ht. Louis.
.Mr. Burn' S—lt is hardly proper to put
that in evidence now. It is mere hear
say. The manor will be investigated
when we get to Bt. Louis.
Mr. Gould—Than I withdraw it.
Mr. Burns—s'ou spoke of the resolution
of tbe Board ol Directors of the Missouri
Pacific railroad, with reference to the du
ties anil powers of Mr. Hoxie. Did you
understand that resolution as limiting or
controlling your powers as President of
the corporation?
Mr. Gould—Tpat happened while I was
away. When rleft, on Jan. 6, an acting
president was appointed, and 1 surren
dered, for tne time being, my position as
president oftb* road. 1 did not consider
the resolution as having anything to do
with the question ot the duties and powers
of the president.
HIS INTENTION.
Mr. Burnes—When yon prepared your
dlspatob to Mr. Hoxie did you intend at
that time to leave him entirely free to act
according to hie own judgment? Did
you intend it as a peremptory order, or
merely as advisory?
Mr.’Gould—Not even as advisory. I
intended it as a matter of precaution. I
meant to put tne whole matter in his
hands, to give entire control, and to hold
hint responsible for the results.
Mr. Burnes—Did you i-eml to Mr. Hoxie,
or did you cause to be sent to him, either
on Mouitay or on Sunday, or the Saturday
preceding, any other telegram or auv
oilier advice?
Mr. Gould—No, sir. Jly telegram to
Air. Hoxie means just what it says, and
we have not changed troni that day to this
by tua crossing of a t or the duiting of
an i.
HIS EXPERIENCE WITH ARBITRATION.
Air. Burnes —in your testimony as to
this dispatch to Mr. iioxie you seem to
favor the principle of arbitration for a
settlement of contentious between em
ployer and employes. Give us the results
and experience of your observation its to
how that principle cun be carried out
practically.
Mr. Gould—Arbitration is getting to be
a very easy and populay way oi settling
difficulties between individuals and cor
po, atious, ami between eo porutione and
their individual employes. I have always
been in favor of arbitration. I regard the
employes ol a railroad company as upon
a different footing from the employes of a
manufacturing or other private corpora
tion. A railway corporation aots in two
senses—first, as’a private organisation;
and second, as a public corporal ion.having
a contract with tlie State. by wbtea it has
certain duties to perform. Taese duties
are to be performed not by rails and en
gines alone, but by tbe entire organia
tion, and they clothe themselves with
public duties, irom tbe president to the
lowest employe. They clothe themselves
with public duties which appertain to tbe
operation ot that railroad as an entirety.
Air. Burnes —Have you considered the
question as to wnether there is any mode
by wmeli the whole working force of a
railroad can be put under tne control of
the people?
ALREADY COVERED BY THE LAW.
Air. Gould—Yes, sir. The laws do that
now. The difficulty is only in enforcing
them. You see that on roads operated by
receivers strikes are rapidly overcome,
because there is respect lor the United
States courts. The public has a right to
have the railroads operated. Any law
which defines that right a,id couples with
it provisions for arbitration would
be a practical solution of
the question, but arbitration
should not be after tbe men had struck
and seized the property ol a railroad com
pany. It should be the duty ol the mon
to keep on at their work. A railroad is
not merely rails, ties, gradings, locomo
tives and cars, but itis the whole thing. It
is the duty of somebody to manage it.
Mr. Burnes—Might not the general gov
ernment lioense and thereby govern and
control the officials of a railroad, from the
superintendent down.
Mr. Gould—l think the officials assume
that to be their duty. It might be made
more distinct by some enactment, anil
then if any injustice be done, there should
be a'mode of arbitration. I have beeu
always In favor of that.
IN WAR TIMES.
Tbe Chairman reminded Air. Gould
that during the civil war tbe public du
ties o: railroad officials were recognized
by law, in fact that they were exempt
from conscription, and Mr. Burnes men
tioned as an analogous case, tne licensing
of pilots.
Mr. Gould—l think that Air. i’owderly
is undertaking to do too much. All that
I can do is to manage tbe Missouri l’a
cific, and I have no end of trouble with
that, but Mr. Powderly Is running shoe
makers, men who make p gs and leather,
all other tradesmen, and not only the
employes of tbe Missouri Pacific railroad,
but of all the employes on 130,000 miles of
railroad. Ido rot wonder that he has
broken down under the load. I think the
government should have such a right to
govern and control railroads as to have
troubles arbitrat' and even without consult
ing a company or its employes.
COMPULSION NOT JUST THE THING.
Air. Burnes—You mean compulsory
arbitration ?
Air. Gould—Public opinion on these
questions is all powerful. Perhaps vol
untary arbitration would have a greater
effect thau compulsory arbitration.
Mr. Burnes—And yet, for some reason,
you and Mr.Powderly and Mr. McDiwell
were in cm sulfation endeavoring to firing
about a set tlement of the alleged grievan
ces and it wan not brought about?
Mr. Gould—Oh, no; I was not endeav
oring to do that.
Mr. liurnes—You were not endeavoring
to arbitrage?
Air. Gould—No sir. We metas individ
uals to have a talk over tne situation. Tne
matter was in Air. Hoxie’s nanils, i never
changed il In uuv shape or form. 1 said
at the start that I would not. Iso slated
in my letter and I have always stated so.
It is oneof the mutters ot detail which 1
do not take up. .
WHY THEY FAILED.
Mr, liiirttcs — Why were not your views
that are iriendiv to arbitration carried
out at. at. Louis?"
Mr. Gould—Mr. Hoxie has been afwavs
ready to carry them nut. That lias been
always our pollcv. We are ready to ar
bitrate any grievances between toe com
pany ami its employes, but tbe interpre
tation which Mr. l’owderlv put upon it
was that the Knights of Labor were to
step in and oversee tins arbitration.
There are 10,000 men employed
by the Missouri Pacific Company woo are
not members of that order, out are mem
bers of other organizations which deal
with us directly. Alter the strike In 1885
we terminated our relations with the or
der of tbe Knights of Labor. They had
taken possession of our road.
A NEW DEAL.
“Then there was anew deal. AVcput
them on a different tooting. Wo took
hack the men, but we took them back as
individuals. Wa did not ask ‘hem
wh"tber they were Knights oi Labor or
Methodists, or Baptists, or anything else.
Ws did not propose to deal with tb •
Knights of Labor as auorganization. Air.
i’owderly understood that distinctly, be
cause I stated it distinctly in that Inter
view.”
Air. Burnes called attention to the order
referred to in the testimony yesterday di.
reeling that no Knightsof Labor should
be employed as foreman. Mr. Gould de
nied any knowledge of that order, but
justified it on the principle of not putting
on guard any except those who could be
trusted.
AFRAID OF M’DOWKLL.
He added: “Tbe last words that l said
to Mr. Powderly were, ’il you have any
grievances, you may come to my house or
m,v office at any time; but do not bring
Mr. McDowell—corns yourself.’ I was
overrun with people ivho said to me,
‘Lookout for McDowell; you will have
him presenting you with a bill to-morrow
of $2i),000 for settling this strike, and he
will pat it in tho hands of a lawyer and
•uu you.’ ”
The coramlttoe took a recess for a quar
ter of an hour and reassembled at 3
o’clock, when tbe examination of Mr.
Gould was resumed.
AS INNOCENT AS A LAMB.
He was inquired of by Mr. Crain as to
the ways of construction companies in is
suing slock to themselves out of propor
tion to the work done, but Air. Gould de
nied any knowledge ot such dark and
questionable transactions, lie was asked
his opinion as to the cause of the strike,
and the only reason that occurred to tiiin
was tho desire of some of
the iouders to obtain notoriety
ami const queues. He had never
beard of anil dul not believe in such
causes of complaint as Air. Powderly
alluded,to in tbe first day’s testimony,such
as cheating of employes In the matter of
hospital taxation, homesteads and stores
belonging to superintendents and lore
men. Such statements were ridiculous,
and he felt positive that there were uo
instances of the kind.
STOCK SPECULATION.
Ho was inquired of by Mr. OutUwaite
as to stock speculations growing out ot
the strike, and he said that he knew noth
ing oi the kind, and that so fur as he was
himself concerned, he had not made a
transaction in stock either long or short,
siueo the first of July, and has no specu
lative interest in the market. He was
sure none of the directors of tho M issouri
Pacific had any dealings in stock of the
road, on the days following his interview
with Mr. Powderly.
Mr. Outhwaite—Wherein would public
interests or the interests of the company
have suffered by the representatives of
the company accepting tbe proposition of
the Knuhts of Labor?
Air. Gould—To arbitrate what? That
was the question.
Mr. Outhwaite—You certainly knew
what you differed about.
POWDERLY AGREED WITH HIM.
Mr. Gould—l do not known that we
differed at all. 1 read ray proposition
over to Mr. I’owderly and he said he
agreed to every word ot it.
Mr. Outhwaite—l have reference to
the difficulty which seemed to arise (if it
did not arise) on that Monday. First, the
men were ordered to resume work and
were about to do so, and then the next
information the country had was that the
men had not resumed work aud that
the trouble was still existing.
Air. Gould—They did not pny any atten
tion to the order, On the cm Mary, Mar
tin irons telegraphed to them to “hold the
fort.” They did not obey tne order, and
did not propose to. I did not, understand
that there w as any agreement made with
Mr. Powderly. There was not when he
left my bouse.
ALL IN DOUBT.
“I did not know what he was going to
do. Alter lie went out 1 had a discussion
with All. Hopkins, who remained, as to
what Mr. Powderly would do, and 1 said
he would do nothing—that he had not the
courage. What he had said be would do
was to issue an order declaring that the
strike was without cause, that the men
were in rebellion, and taking away their
etiarter. it was on that statement that I
gave him a copy of mv dispatch to .Mr.
H >xie. File next morning it came
out in the papers Irom him that there was
an entirely different thing done. It was
of that I complained because I did not
agree to it in that shape.”
STICKING TO HIS POINT.
Mr. Outhwaite —But what injury could
have com,; to tue company if it bad ac
cepted and acted upon Mr. Powderly’s
view of the case?
Mr. Gould—l do notkuow what subject
their arbitration would cover. If it
covered the question whether we should
di charge men whom we had employed
after the strike tve would not. admit that
to be a subject of arbitration.
Air. Outh waite—Then you did not in
tend or want to have any arbitration or
effort to settle any difficulties with tlie
Knignts of Labor w ho had struck or were
out of your employment at the time; was
that the understanding?
Mr. Gould—Yes, that is It distinctly.
MISSOURI PACIFIC’S RELATIONS.
Mr. Burnes inquired as to the relations
of the Missouri Pacific with the otberrall
roads now incorporated in tlie system, as
to the amount of stock and bonds issued,
and as to other matters connected with
the company, wnicb information Mr.
Gould promised to furnish hereafter. Mr.
Burnes also inquired as to the general
effect ol the pooling system, and Mr.
Gould replied that its gene-ai effect whh
beneficial to tne public, beiiause witbout
il most, if not all, the railroads of the
country would by in the hands of re
ceivers.
Mr. Burnes—Why would that be tbe
result?
COMPETITION NOT THE LIFE OF TRADE.
Mr. Gould—Because of the low rates
from excessive competition.
Mr. Burnes— I Then competition is not
the life of trade?
Mr. Gould—No, sir; and the result
would lie that wages would have to be cut
down 50 per cent. Labor is a very large
element, in railroad expenses. Directly
it amounts to about GO per cent., to sav
nothing ot tbe labor on steel rails aud
other railroad materials.
>fr. Burnes—lf pooling is beneficial to
the fail road companies Is it also beneficial
to the people ?
Mr. Gould —I think it is. The public is in
terested in having Httong. able roads well
equipped. 1 have always found that real
estate sells higher, and people would
rather live on lines ol railroads that are
financially strong.
LOCAL AND THROUGH KATES.
Mr. Burnes inqu'red as to the general
proportions between the local earnings
nod ibrougn* arningsof railroads,but Air.
Gould ileclar< and himself unable to giva in -
lormution in tout point.
'i'Ue Chairman remarked that he would
be very glad to have the scope ol the com
mittee's examination enlarg' and so as to
extend it to mo mineral region*, because
il the commit tee mount any tiling it meant
to quiet the unrest in tbo country, and to
provide a remedy for It.
Mr. Gould ( gooilhtimoredly ) I shall be
very kind to read tbe opinion of ibo com*
imiteu wiien n formal report is arrived at,
and 1 will keep any investment 1 may
have to make In abeyance with them.
The Chairman —i hardly think you will
do that it you get a fair opportunity to
have u spy at Wall street, atul I would
like to be in partnership witu you.
This closed Air. Gould’s examination,
which extended over four hours.
He gave his testimony very briefly and
in a low Pine of voice, and did not volun
teer aov statement, confining himself
merely to answering questions asked him.
MR. HOPKINS SWORN.
Mr. Hopkins, Vice I’resident of the
Missouri l’acilic, was then sworn amt
examined. He corroborated generally
Mr. Gould’s account of the interviews
with Air. I’owderly, at which he was
present. Be had always believed In arbi
iratlon as a means of settlement, and ho
saw no objection even to compulsory
arbitration, provided it was made com
pulsory on both sides, but such arbitra
tion would have to bo between employes
themselves (actually at work) and tbe
com pan). Tout was tbe point in the
whole matter. Railroad em
ployes hail no better friends
than the managers of the road. There
were no antagonistic interests between
them. The managers wanted to accom
plish the best results, and in order to do
so they should have good men, and should
be in accord with their men .uni on friend
ly relations with them.
SHOULD BE A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.
He thought itqg'uild be made a criminal
offense to have a strike on a railroad. If
before Ibe days of railroads there was a
strike of steamboat hands on the Alissis
sippi river, and the strikers attempted to
prevent the passage of boats, surclv that
would be such a case of interfer
ence with inter-State commerce that
tho general government would disperse
the strikers anil say that traffic must not
lie Inlorlered with. There wis no objec
tion to quitting work, and if, in the pres
ent case, the strikers hail confined them
selves io that., the company would never
have stopped running trains.
He was asked as to whether he hud any
knowledge of Wall street speculations in
connection with the stria", but all be
knew on that point wits that he had been
informed that persons connected w:th the
Knights of Labor had been noticed in the
brokers’ offices. He promised to give the
nan*!H ot such persons as had been men
tioned to him in that connection. He
closed by paying a high compliment to
Air. Hoxie for the manner in which he had
administered the affairs of the company.
The eommitteoat s:3oo’clock adjourned
till 11 o’clock to-morrow.
IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.
The Hamburg, lowa, Pot (mastership
Case Kiula In Refusal to Confirm.
Washington, April 22.—Announce
ment is made of a number of Senatorial
confirmations. Among them are: E. G.
Ross, to be Governor of New Mexico; W.
8. Rosecrans, to he Registrar of the Treas
ury: Zach Montgomery, to be Assistant
Attorney General of the Interior Depart
ment.; J. J. Higgins, to be Collector of
Customs at Natchez, Miss.
A. B. Keith, nominated for Postmaster
at Deuisou, lowa, has been rejected.
THE POLLARD CASK.
Tho Senate, In executive session, took
up the case of Charles R. Pollard, of In
diana, nominat'd to be Judge of the Su
preme Court of Alontana, vice Gen. Co
burn suspended. The case was reported
adversely from Hie Judiciary Committee,
and Senators Edmunds ami Hoar spoke
against Mr. Pollard. Mr. Pollard was a
Confederate aud Mr. Coburn was a Union
soldier. Many allegations concerning
questionable transactions in which Air.
Pollard took part when Assistant District
Attorney in Indiana were discuss' and. Mr.
Voorhees began a speech In favor of Mr.
Pollard, but gave way for an adjourn
ment.
Mr. Morgan offered a resolution, which
was not acted upon, to remove the injunc
ti"n of seereev from the Weil and La Abra
Alexican treaty recently rejected, aud the
accompanying papers.
WISE, OF IOWA.
The Senate has removed the injunction
of secrecy Irom the report in the ease of
George Wise, nominated to be Postmaster
at Hamburg, lowa. Mr. Wise brought
charges of partisanship and inefficiency
against Air. Coolbaugh, the incumbent,
and tbe committee having received the
papers In the ease, gave Mr. Coolbaugh
an opportunity to reply. The report em
bodies all the papers in the case and con
cludes as follows:
It whs fortunate for the suspended officer
that his cave resrhed the committee before
the Kxecutive Department resolved not to
place ihe papers. upon which suspensions are
baaed. in it# po-eo-sinn for inspection. The
papers in this case wore communicated to the
committee by the Postmaster General. Tnis
enabled the committee to Inform the sus
pended officer of the nature of the charges
ag dust him. anil afford him an opportunity to
respond to the tame. The effectiveness of the
suspended officer’s reaponae to the charges
and specifications presented to the President,
and Pi stniastor General will not be ques
tioned by any ini partial mind.
WISE’S COURSE.
He did not rest hn defense on his own per
sons! denial, nor qualify Its force by the in
troduction of counter charges against his
accuser. He went directly 1.0 parties
upon whose site md grievances the person
nominated to the Senate as his successor had
based his charges, and the result of his action
is gi' en in letters of said parties lieiWinbeforo
sl ini These letters he forwarded to the
committee in support of his specific, answers to
the charges and specifications opon which he
win suspended. Those are autograph letter*
of the parties nod disclose the fact ihat said
charges and specifications have ro
foundation of truth upon which to
rest. In view of the foregoing
state of facts, the coin mil tec can hilt con
clude that George Wise, the person nominated
by the President, is not entitled to further
consideration hy tlie Hen tie. For tho Senate
to advise and consent to his appointment > y
the President would but encourage the pre
sentation of unfounded chargee against public
nffi -ers. I’hc nr retire is hail enough wh"ii the
office is sought hv a person not a party to ihe
formulation and presentation of false
charges. Tl is much worse when the appli
cant foroffice is • Iso the accuser, as In the
present case. The nominal ion of Georg ’
Wise mbe Postmaster at flu nbtirg la., vice
H. Goolbangh suspended, Is herewith re
ported to the Senate wuh a recommendation
that it he uot confirmed.
MORROW’S UEBTIUCTION BILL.
The House Committee Reconsiders It*
Favorable Report.
Washington, April 22.—Tbo House
Committee on Foreign A flairs to-day re
considered the vole by which a favorable
report was ordered on the Morrow Chi
nese bill. Representative Morrow and
o’her members or the California delega
tion art opposed to the amendments mude
to the bill In committee, and especially
to that one which says m inters of vessels
shall not be liable to n penalty for bringing
any person Into the United states who i*
entitled to come io this country under
existing treaty stipulations. They say
that the hill is really an abrogation of tlie
Burlingame treaty, and that If this
amendment w. re adopted il would defeat
th" entire purpose of the bill. They also
said they would oppose the hill in the
House If reported In its present shape.
The hill will in further coualdered In
committee next Tuesday.
SYMPATHY KOIt IKKLAND.
Mr. O'Nefll’a Iteaolutlon Again Given
the Cold Shoulder.
Washington, April 22.— 1n the House
to-duy Mr. O’Neill, of Missouri, again at
tempted to secure the adoption of his reso
lution declaring that the House sympa
thizes with Mr. Gladstone’s efforts to se
cure tt tree I’arlLiment for tho people of
Ireland, and congratulating that country
on the prospect oi an early and successful
termination of their long and patriotic
struggle lor local self-government, hut
Mr. Swope, of Pennsylvania, Interposed a
fat*l objection, aud though he subse
quently withdrew It, tbe dsraand for tbe
regular order prevented aotion on the
resolution.
Mr. Compton, of Maryland, moved an
adjournment over Good Friday, but bis
motion was voted dowu, and then, at 5:20
o’clock, tbe House took a recess until 11
o'oiook to-morrow.
( FRIUF, #lO A YEAR,)
( 5 CBN IS A COPY. j
PRESIDENT AND TOILER.
X MERSAGFz TO THK HKNATE O!*
THE IjABOK QUESTION.
A CninmlMlnn of Threw to Art. a Arbt*
tr>t rn Under Him Hurt* ll or Labor Re
uotntkittnrimi—Labor’* Itltflit. to Hecog
nitlon at tho llttudi of the l.nw-Miikiog
Fowort.
Washington, April 22,—A messaga
from the President rtdating to labor
troubles was laid before the Senate to*
day. When it had been read a question
arose as to tlie committee to which il
could most appropriately he referred—*
whether tho Judiciary Committee or tha
Committee on Education and Labor. It
was Anally ordered printed and the ques*
tlon of reference allowed to remain in
obeyarce. The message in lull is as tol*
lows:
To tit StnotA nnj llouaa of
The c. institution inii oes on the President
tue duty of recommending to the considers*
lion of Congress, from time to time, tuck
incnsurc* as he shall Judge uece-hary and ex*
pt'tl'cdl. lam so deeply Impressed with th
importance of I'limtlliiielv and thoughtful]
inerting the problem winch recent events aus
tb® present condition hitve thrust upon ua. In
volving a aettl' ment of deputes artsteg b
tween our laboring men and their employers*
that I am constrained to recommend to Con*
fTeas iogmtatlon upon this serious and press
tig subject, li ticlerour form of government,
the value of labor a an element of national
prosperity should he distinctly recognized,
and tlie welfare of the la)a>ring man should
be regarded ar especially entitled to leg*
islative csre. in ti country which
offers to all Hmcitizens the highest aliainm. nl
of octal and political dtstiiviion, its work*
ragmen cannot justlv or safely he considered
Hud irrevocably consigned to the limits o|
class and entitled to no attention, and allowcit
no protest against neglect. The laboring mat*
l earing in hlshandan indispensahlecontribu
tmn to our growth and progress, may well in*
sist with manly courage and as a right, upon
the same recognition from those who tnakg
our law as is accorded to any other citizen
having valuable Interest in charge, aud bl.
reasonable demand should ho met in such n
spirit of appreciation and fairness as to ln4
dune Contented and p itriotic co-operation in
the achievement of a grand national destiny*
ABOVE PARTISAN INTERESTS.
While the real interests of labor are nol
promoted hy a resort in threats and violeni
iiinnifesiation*. and while those who unde]
pretext of an advocacy of the claims of labo*
wantonly attack the rights of capital, and fo(
selfish purposes or love of disorder sow seed!
of violence and discontent, should neither h
encouraged nor conciliated All legislation
on the subject should he CHlmly and dew
liherately undertaken, with no purpose o]
satisfying unreasonable demands or gaining
partisan advantage. The present condltiod
of the ratal lona between labor and capital ars
far from satisfactory. The discontent of ths
employed is duu In a large degree to tha
gra ping and heedless exactions of em
ployers and alleged ands rtininatton in favoi
of capital aa an object of governmental at en
tion. It. must also lie conceded that lalmring
men are not always careful to avoid canse-
Ps. trad nnjttatlliable disturb.nee. Though
the importance of better accord between the*.
Interests is appreciated, it must be borne its
mind that any effort in that direction hv tha
Federal government must he greatly l mitetl
by constitutional restrictions. There arh
many grievances which legislation hv Con
gress cannot red rest,, and many conditions
which cannot hy inch means be reformed,
THE PRESIDENT’S RECOMMENDATIONS,
I am satisfied, however, that something
may he done under the Federal authority to
prevent distnrbaanceg which so olten Hriss
from d'sp les between employer and em
ploy'd. and which at times seriously threaten
the business interests of the country, and in
my opinion the proper theory upon which la
proceed Is that of voluntary arbitration ass
means of settling these difficulties, hut I
suggest that instead of arbitrators chosen
in the heat of conflicting claims and
after each diapute shall arise there be created
a Commission of Labor, consisting of thres
members, who shall lie regular officers of ths
government, charg'd, among other duties,
with the consid'ration and settlement, when
possible, of alt controversies Detween labo.
and capital. The commission thus organized
would have the advantage of being a stable
body, aud its members, us th y gained expe.
rlence, would couatmtlv Improve In theil
ability to deal intelligently and use
fully with 'ideation* which might h
submitted to them, if arbitrators are idiosea
for temporary service as e ch case of dispute
arises, experience and familiarity with mucla
Unit i* Involved in the question will he lack
ing, extreme partisanship and bias will Im
qualifications sought on either stile, and fre
qucntcomplalnts of unfalrne-s and partiality
will he inevitable. The tun,os: I ion upon tlie
Federal Court of the duty, foreign to judicial
function, as the selection of an arbitrator in
such ca-‘' is at least of donhiful propriety,.
The establishment by Federal authority of
such a bureau wnnld lie a just and scnslbla
recognition of the value of Id,or and of its
right Io he represented in the departments ot
the government.
.niSTIKIKD BY THU CONSTITUTION.
So far as it* conciliatory nfli'-e.. had relation
to disturbance* wbleti interfered with tranalt
and commerce between ststo* da existence
would Im justified n ndor tbe provisions of the
constitution. which giro* to Congress the
power‘‘to regulate commerce with foreign
n:inon* and itrnong the several State*,’’ and
in the frequent dispute* between laboring
men and theiremplo* ei of lea* extent anil
consequence, mnnv of whb h are confined
within State limit* and threaten domeatia
violence, th* Interposition of such commis
sion might be tendered upon application of
the Legislature nr Executive or the State
under Ihoconstl iitlnntl provision which re
quire* the general government “to protect
each of the Stale* against domestic violence."
If such a commission were fairly orgamzetl
the risk of In** of popular support
nnd sympathy resulting from a refusal to
submit to so peaceful uu instrumentality
would constrain both parties to such disputes,
to Invoke its Interfere! ce at and abide bv Its <le
elsion. Them wrottlri also be good reason ta
hope that the veri existence of such an agency
would Invite application in it for ad\ice and
Counsel, frequently resulting in the avoidance
of conientlou and misunderstanding. If th*
usefulness of such n com mission is doubted,
because It niliiht lack power to enforce It)
decision, much encouragement is der'ved
from the conceded good that has been aooom*
j ri ihad by the railroad comnalesioae wmeu
have been organized in mativ of the Slates,
which, having little more than advisor*
power, have excited the mo<t salutary Influ
ence in the settlement of dispates between
conflicting interests.
Tint I.AROR BUKKAU.
In July, IHM, bv law of congress, the
llureau of l.a'"or was established, and placed
in charge of the Commissioner of Labor, who
l required “torolieet Information upon th*
subject of lalior, Its relation* with cnidtal, the
lioursnf labor, an l the condition of laboring
men an I women, and m-an* of promoting
their material, social. Intellectual and moral
prosperity.*’ The coinmiA-inn which I sug
f;r it could easily be engrafted upon tbe
iiirenu thus already organized, by tha
addition of two morn commissioners,
and by siipiilementlng the duties now
imposed upon it bv such other powers and
function*** would permit the cnimi*'oner*
to ad a* arhltra'ors.wheu necn**rr,b*iw**n
labor and capital under such limitations and
upon such o easion at should be deemed
proper and useful Tower should also hedis
tincilv conferred on this uureait to Investi
gate the causes of all dispute* a* they occur,
whether submitted for arbitration or not. so
that Information may alwars be at hand to
aid legislation on the subject when necessary
and desirable. Uaovrx f t,ev tL AMD.
JTpfeuUtt Muntion, April tt, IMB.
Chinese Indemnification.
Washinuton, April 22.—1n the Senate
to-day Mr. Morgan reported from the For
eign Relation* Committee tbe bill to In
demnify tbe Chinese who suffered by the
recent outbreaks at Kock Springe, ff j.T,
Mr. Morgan said that he would call the
bill uu lor consideration at an early day.