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MARYLAND
SOUTHERN SCHOOL NEWS—JULY 1959—PAGE 5
Fischer Reviews Baltimore Desegregation Course
BALTIMORE, Md.
RADUATION EXERCISES AND FI
NAL report cards in mid-
June brought to a close the fifth
year of desegregated schooling in
Baltimore, an occasion that had
added significance because of the
imminent departure of the man
most directly responsible for the
course of desegregation in city
schools. Dr. John H. Fischer, who
became Superintendent of Public
Instruction early in 1953, assumes
a new post on Sept. 1 as dean of
Teachers’ College at Columbia
University.
A native of Baltimore who
spent his professional life in the
city school system, Dr. Fischer
was only 42 when he became su
perintendent, following the death
of his predecessor, and little more
than one year later the school
board adopted a policy that placed
all grades of all schools on a non-
segregated basis at the start of the
fall semester. His comments on
and evaluation of Baltimore’s first
five years of desegregated school
ing are given in the following
exclusive interview with a
Southern School News repre
sentative:
Question: Certainly, Dr. Fischer, no
higher honor can be attained in your
profession than that of becoming dean
of Teachers’ College at Columbia Uni
versity, yet presumably you leave Balti
more with some regrets, don’t you?
Answer: Yes. The leaving is the un
pleasant part of the change for me.
Contrary to the popular belief that a
school superintendent leads a dog’s life,
I’ve enjoyed every day of my work. I’ve
been much luckier than most superin
tendents in the kind of people I have
been able to work with in the school
board, the school staff, and the com
munity. But, frankly, I’m bothered
about Baltimore. I’m not sure its lead
ers, including the press people, know
how much the future of this town de
pends on good schools.
Q.: Do you include the desegregation
steps among the satisfying aspects of
your superintendency?
A.: Yes. It has been good to be in on
one of the historic developments of our
time and to know that our community
played its part so well.
Q.: Thinking back to five years ago,
did you have any doubts at the time
that the school board would support
your recommendation for immediate
and complete desegregation?
A.: No doubts at all.
Q.: Did the professional staff or board
members ever consider a more gradual
approach to the elimination of racial
barriers?
A.: No. We assumed that the decision
was intended to affect every child and
that we had no authority to prevent any
pupil’s immediate access to its benefits.
CONSIDERS ACTION BEST
Q.: Do you still think that taking the
full plunge at the outset was the best
melhod for Baltimore?
A. Yes. We would probably have
had much more trouble had we done
the job gradually.
Q.: Would you advise other cities to
try the same approach, or do you think
that special conditions prevailed in
Baltimore that made the full plunge the
right move here but not necessarily
elsewhere?
A.: No. I am convinced that every
community must work out its own pro
gram to meet local conditions and pos
sibilities.
Q.: Among the special conditions,
how much weight do you attach to the
bi-racial association of white and col
ored teachers, principals and super
visors in meetings and workshops as a
preparation for pupil integration?
‘IMPORTANT ELEMENT’
A.: This was an important element
but it would probably not have carried
much weight had it not been accom
panied by other community programs
and trends toward bi-racial association
in other activities.
Q.: Assuming you believed in 1954
that the public would support desegre
gation, what factors led you to believe
that Baltimore was prepared to accept
placing the two races in the same
schools?
A.: A number of other mixed activ
ities had been successful before the ac
tion of the school board on June 3,1954.
The organization of the PTA Council on
a bi-racial basis, the bi-racial activities
>n the teacher organizations, the slim
mer activities for children conducted
by the Red Cross, the success of the
Polytechnic decision in 1952, the accept
ance of Negro fire fighters and bus
drivers, the bi-racial association of so
cial agency people, the activities of the
Urban League, and other events and
programs all pointed to probable success
in the schools.
Q.: Do you think anything more could
have been done or should have been
done to prepare pupils, teachers or the
public for desegregation?
HAS DOUBTS
A.: I doubt that such specific activ
ities as workshops in desegregation or
discussions with parents would have
added to the success of the program.
Q.: When a near-violent disturbance
was created in South Baltimore after
the first month of desegregation, did
you have any second thoughts as to
what might have been done to head it
off?
A.: I doubt that the type of disturb
ance we had in South Baltimore could
have been headed off. Certainly, it is
difficult to imagine what we might have
done, given no more experience or in
formation than we had in September
1954. I suspect that a small fraction of
the population would in any case have
insisted on trying mass demonstrations
as a means of interfering with integra
tion. People with such an attitude could
hardly have been talked out of trying
their approach. They simply had to be
shown that it would not work and
would not be tolerated by the commun
ity as a whole.
Q.: Once that initial trouble was out
of the way, have you since had any
disturbances, or threats of disturbances
or anything else alarming happen in
any other parts of Baltimore?
STUDENTS DEMONSTRATE
A.: Only one, in September, 1956, at
Southern High School just after the
trouble in Clinton, Tenn. A group of
about 200 students stayed out of school
one day and circulated through the
neighborhood expressing their objection
to school integration. As soon as the
principal, who was new to the school
that September, found out what was
afoot he had all of the class rolls check
ed and announced that every pupil who
was illegally out of school that day was
under suspension and would not be al
lowed to return until he was brought
back by one of his parents. We made it
clear that we would tolerate no such
interference with the normal operation
of the school and would treat the
demonstration like any other flagrant
misbehavior. We have had no trouble
since.
Q.: Would you expect the city ever to
have trouble again?
A.: No.
Q.: Most of the integration in Balti
more has been the result of changes in
the residential pattern that have
brought colored children into former
white schools not so much as a matter
of choice as of proximity. Has it sur
prised or disappointed you that more
Negroes have not sought out the advan
tages which some of the better white or
integrated schools offer them?
A.: No. Most elementary children at
tend the schools nearest their homes
and we think this is good. In junior and
senior high schools, where city-wide
freedom of selection has always been
the Baltimore policy, pupils have
usually chosen schools where they
would be with their friends or other
students of similar interests. I would
expect Negro children to make their
choice on about the same basis as white
children and this appears to be what
they have done.
Q-: To what extent have white chil
dren been permitted to transfer out of
integrated schools?
ALL GRANTED
A.: So far as I know we have ap
proved virtually every request for
transfer from both white and Negro
children. This has not involved any
great volume of changes. I would esti
mate that in the five years, the total
number of white children leaving inte
grated schools without a change of
residence has not exceeded 200 if, in
deed, the figure has been that high. And
while many Negro pupils have re
quested transfers to integrated schools,
a smaller number have asked to return
to all colored schools.
Q-: As neighborhoods change from
white to colored, so do the schools in
those neighborhoods, which means that
integrated Negroes in time become seg
regated once again, or nearly so. Do
you see educational and social disad
vantages stemming from this re-segre
gation?
A.: If we accept the principle that
race alone does not affect the worth of
any human being, it follows that the
percentage of white people or of Ne
groes has no effect on the desirability
of a neighborhood or school. The injus
tice of segregation comes when the
normal right of voluntary association
and free access to public agencies is
denied by law or through subterfuge. No
child is harmed educationally or social
ly by the race of his classmates but he
might very well be by their behavior.
CULTURAL LEVEL FACTOR
The racial makeup of a neighborhood
is of no educational importance but the
cultural level of the people certainly is.
I am less concerned that many of our
neighborhoods are solidly Negro than I
am by the fact that some of them have
a great many families, white and Negro,
whose cultural level is very low. This
kind of cultural segregation is always
bad. No school is automatically im
proved just by adding a second race to
it. But with competent teachers and a
satisfactory physical environment, any
school can be good if the program is
properly adapted to the pupils. The
principal effect of the Supreme Court
DR. JOHN H. FISCHER
Answers to Questions
decision of 1954 was to strike down the
laws that gave Negro children less of a
chance for education than they gave
white children.
Q.: Conversely, then, what do you
consider to be the educational and so
cial advantages of integration?
OPPORTUNITY, ABILITY STRESSED
A.: Once a child has built the basic
security he must find in his own family,
his develoment is likely to be enhanced
if he can associate with others who will
extend his outlook and add to his cul
tural experiences. Wherever possible he
should come to know persons of other
races, other religions, other ethnic
origins, other social and economic
groups. An integrated school would
normally give more opportunity for va
ried contacts than a school attended by
children chosen from a narrow range.
But when children from a broad cul
tural range are assembled in one class
room teaching problems are increased,
because the interests, ambition and
academic ability of children usually
vary with the cultural level of their
homes. The more varied the student
body, the more opportunity the school
has for broadening the educational ex
periences of children. But opportunity
is one thing and ability to take advan
tage of it is another. The educational
possibilities of an integrated group can
be properly used only when teachers
are able to deal constructively with
differences among children and use
these differences to build mutual under
standing and respect.
Q-: Aside from pupil advantages, has
integration given you, as superinten
dent, any administrative advantages,
such as economy of operation, simpli
fied construction plans, fewer staff-
assignment problems or the like?
A.: Yes. Now we can use buildings in
changing neighborhoods to full capacity.
In the days of segregation we often
found ourselves w r ith a white school
half empty and a nearby Negro school
on double sessions. Since 1954, in filling
staff positions, we have been able to
select the best qualified person for any
vacancy without having to ask whether
he is white or colored. Our personnel
division no longer maintains dual eligi
bility lists but merely a single fist for
each classification. Nor is it necessary
now to provide duplicate specialized
facilities, as in vocational schools, for
white and Negro children even though
very few children of one race might
want to use them. We simply plan for
the number of pupils to be accom
modated, regardless of race.
Q.: You have said in the past that
integration has not lowered scholastic
standards in Baltimore. Would you care
to elaborate on this?
CASES VARY
A.: Legal action in no way alters a
child’s special talents or his general
intelligence. We have no evidence that
any of our bright children is doing less
well since 1954 than he did before the
Supreme Court decision. But some of
the abler Negro children who were
denied accelerated and other special
programs prior to 1954 are definitely
profiting from the opportunities they
now have to enroll in such programs in
the previously white schools. In all of
our schools, children are grouped for
instruction according to their ability.
Such grouping may be done within a
classroom or whole classes of more or
less similar ability may be organized.
It is difficult to give documentary evi
dence on this point but my general im
pression is that all of our schools have
worked to raise standards and to pursue
excellence more deliberately than we
did several years ago. This seems to be
true of Negro schools, white schools and
integrated schools. It’s happening not
only in Baltimore, but all over the
country.
Q.: You concede, though, that
achievement levels are lower in schools
that have received large numbers of
children from economically or socially
depressed families?
A.: Yes. This is one of the serious
problems of our big cities.
Q.: Is there any evidence that col
ored children profit educationally from
integrated schooling; that is to say, that
they do better work in the formerly
white schools than they did in the all
colored schools?
A.: I know of no airtight evidence on
this point. The colored families who
move into previously all white neigh
borhoods are often better educated,
more ambitious, and more concerned
with raising their cultural level than
many of the families who continue to
live in segregated slums. Children of
such parents would be likely to do bet
ter in any school, in some cases because
of higher native intelligence and in
others because of stronger motivation.
Since these children would be attend
ing integrated schools, it might be con
cluded that integration was the cause of
their better performance. The conclu
sion is not necessarily sound.
Q.: Do you think (and this will
really put you on the spot!) that our
remaining colored schools on average
are as good, educationally speaking, as
our white or formerly white schools?
NOT AS GOOD
A.: This doesn’t put me on the spot
at all. In general, our colored schools
were not as good as our white schools
before 1954 and the differences have not
been completely eradicated in five years.
Prior to 1954 we employed teachers on
the basis of race and the colored schools
were staffed by the best colored teach
ers available. On the whole the colored
teachers did not make as good scores on
the professional examinations as the
white teachers and a number of them
came from colleges that could not
honestly be called the equal of the col
leges from which most of our white
teachers were drawn. Many of these
teachers have made heroic efforts to
improve their competence and some of
them have become very good indeed.
But the average competence of our Ne
gro teachers is probably not as high as
the average of all our white teachers.
We are living with the consequences of
our past mistakes in segregating and
depressing a large section of our pop
ulation.
Q.: All but the youngest of our col
ored teachers are themselves the
product of segregated education. If seg
regation produces an inferior brand of
education, then it must follow that the
average colored teacher is less prepared
than the average white teacher. Is this
so in actual practice?
A.: Yes, and this is the reason why
every year, of the teacher applicants
who take our examinations, the largest
number and the largest proportion of
failures are among the Negro group.
Since 1954 all of the teachers we have
employed, both white and Negro, have
been selected on the basis of the na
tional teacher examinations and an in
terview conducted by bi-racial panels of
our own staff. The same panels inter
view both white and Negro applicants
and no racial discriminations are made.
All of the teachers employed in the
Baltimore schools are drawn from the
upper half of those who take the na-
He Directed
tional teacher examinations throughout
the country.
Q.: Some white teachers who now
have colored children in their classes
say it is their impression that the col
ored schools have concentrated atten
tion on the brighter pupils and have not
done as much as could have been done
with the average and slow learners. Do
you feel there is substance in this
criticism?
A.: Such impressions will probably
vary from teacher to teacher and class
to class. I know of no evidence to sup
port a generalization.
Q.: Has any effort been made in re
cent years to improve the quality of
education in colored schools, apart from
efforts in the school system as a whole?
EXTRA ALLOWANCES MADE
A.: Several years before the 1954 de
cision we learned that some of the col
ored schools had insufficient text books
to carry on adequate programs. Without
trying to unravel all the possible rea
sons for the shortage we arranged for
extra budget allowances for these
schools in order to correct the situation.
Other efforts were made through in-
service training programs and special
supervisory activities to upgrade in
struction in various areas. Since 1954
we have not concentrated on colored
schools as such but have followed our
standard practice of dealing with spe
cific situations of individual schools in
whatever ways seem appropriate. There
are still, of course, variations in the
quality of programs within the school
system. It would be unfair to say that
either racial group has a monopoly of
strength or weaknesses.
Q.: Have your schools maintained a
full social schedule, class picnics, ex
cursions, dances and the like?
A..- Yes.
Q.: What has been the experience in
integrated schools, particularly when it
comes to dances?
A.: Boys and girls date members of
their own race for school dances as they
do for private affairs. Most of them
spend the evening with small groups of
their own close friends and dance only
with their own dates. I have heard of
no mixed dancing at school affairs. In
social activities our pupils tend to fol
low the prevailing patterns of the com
munity.
Q.: Probably to a larger extent than
any other superintendent below the
Mason-Dixon line—and perhaps above
the line, for that matter—you have used
colored teachers in integrated situa
tions. How extensive has this staff inte
gration been in Baltimore, and how has
it worked?
A.: We now have between three and
four hundred Negro teachers in facul
ties that were formerly all white. These
situations range from schools where one
or two Negro teachers are part of a
faculty otherwise entirely white, to
others where the division is approxi
mately half and half. We have a few
schools in which several white teachers
work in a faculty which is otherwise
all Negro. We have no special prob
lems as a result of these arrangements,
except for the temporary initial
strangeness which would be experi
enced by anyone coming into an un
accustomed situation. The relationships
between the white and Negro teachers
in these integrated faculties have been
marked by understanding, respect and
helpfulness on both sides.
Q.: Does staff integration present any
large problems with pupils, parents or
principals?
A.: No. We have had only rare in
stances of parents or pupils objecting
to Negro teachers and these have all
been settled amicably. So far as the
principals are concerned, what they
most want is competent teachers. Race,
as such, matters much less than ability.
Q.: As a final wrap-up, just how ex
tensive is pupil integration today in
Baltimore, either on the basis of num
ber of schools or number of children
integrated, and what is the outlook in,
say the next five years?
FIGURE BREAKDOWN
A.: Of our 163,500 pupils on roll in
October 1958, 85,931 were white and
77,611 were Negro. 61,949 or 72.1 per
cent of the white children and 35,817
or 46.1 per cent of the Negro children
were in integrated schools. Of our 176
schools, 90 were integrated, 52 were all
Negro and 34 all white. The percentage
of Negro children in the Baltimore Pub
lic Schools was 26.9 in 1939, 34.2 in
1949, 39.7 in 1954, and 47.5 in 1958. What
the percentage will be in 1964 I have no
way of knowing, but unless there is a
marked change in the migration pat
tern, the Negro population of Baltimore
will continue to increase both in num
bers and percentage.
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