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GONGHKSS. House of Representatives. April 13. Dr. Bibb’s Speech on the Bill approving the means to a( cer tain the title io the BATTURK • Mr Bibb said he felt no dispo sition to delay unnecessarily aeon elusion of the subject, or to tres. pass on tile patience of the com in ttee. Indeed said he if my gard for (he feeling* of otherscould possibly permit m: from day to day to address an assembly un willing to hear (of which unfortu nately for this body, and for the nation we have too many example*) I co life A ihe respect I feel for my seit would forbid it. But, sir, cal led upon to adopt a measure which innovates on the established usa ges of the country, sets a prece dent the most dangerous and alar ming, places the government un. der the controu! ol intrigue, and m my apprehension, sacrifices the sovereignty of the nation on the altar of inordinate speculation, I cannot, nor will not be silent. Pass this bill—pursue this ex. traordinary course of proceeding, and it becomes the entering wedge which is to enable a horde of spe culators who infest the capitol, & distract the nation, to triumph over the virtue of the country. Aud I do believe that the bill it supported by a portion of this assembly with a view to that object. Yes dr, it i* tlie object •pf some gentlemen *o establish api ‘cedent in f-twor of the Yazoo claimants, an & S w*»h it 1 to be understood. Can the.e who are willing on die present occasion to grant a privilege to IVIr. Living, ston unhcai d of in the history of this government, refuse with any eoi't of consistency the same privi lege to oilier intruders who have been removed from the public lands in the same way and under the s.'sscse law. They canrat, nor its it w**3sr its:cation to do lit is wue, attempts have been made to distinguish th« cast of the petiti oner from that of the Yazoo clai. manta who were removed from land- ‘,n (It* .Mississippi Territory j but whatever difference thcr e mi jy. be in the origin of their claims, none exists in the treatment the individuals have received, no; can any reasons he urged for granting • a judicial trial in the one case, Vjhich are not equally applicable to Ihe other. But, air, we are told that tile case of the petitioner in volves the very existence of our free government—that he lias been removed from his property at the point of the bayonet—and that if such an example shall be sancti oned by the representatives of the people, every man in the nation b comes a tenant at the w ill of the Piesidcnt. li is not uiy purpose to enquire wliy this case alone should produce so much excite ment when the removal of hun dreds in ihe same way has passed unnoticed ; but I will shew in the course of niy remarks, that all we have heard upon the subject is mere declamation, and that the t;aiful apprehensions which have een expressed by some gentlemen Are perfectly unfounded. As to the appeals which have been made to the sympathies of the commit tee, and the charge which ha* been urged of wanton oppression on tn e part of the President towards this hulivideal, they cannot leach my feelings. How ever much 1 may ieet fur the people us New Orleans, who have been distuioed in the use ct t'ie baituie, which they had b e cu *ccustorrMtd to enjoy ever since it existed, I have no sympa thy (or the disturber of their re pose. While the legislative and executive departments of the gov ernment have been using their best endeavors to conciliate the alFcc- N tions of those people, this man has - not beep le»s busy in creating dis . conttut among them, lie has been . the evil genius of the territory, end when genii, men undertake to . declaim against the conduct of M r ' Jefferson, and in favor of hi» inno cence, they should recollect the circumstances under which he rc. moved to N Orleans. It is impos sible that .any naan m his senses W ■ ■ can believe Mr. Livingston ha* ac quired a just claim to the property worth from half a million to one million of dollars, the value of which was as welt known to others as to himself, when it is notorious that he is a bankrupt—a public de- | fanlter to a very large amount- — ! [Mr- Poindexter called Mr. B:bb to order—Mr U- replied, sit down sir, I a:n in order, you are not-]— The Chairman, according to the rule of the House, required Mr B. to sit down, and Mr. P. to state in writing the words objected to, i which were “ it is notorious iliat , the petitioner is a bankrupt.” Mr. B. had leave of the chair to ex plain, H-e considered himself with in the strict rule of order. His object was to shew that the situa tion of the petitioner rendered it almost impossible that he could have acquired a fair claim to the property in question ; that it must be a collusive speculation, and therefore that he was not entitled to the peculiar favor of the nation al legislature. Indeed, said .Mr. B. if I am not mistaken, he has acknowledged the fact in his peti tion, for mentioning which I have been interrupted by the delegate from the Mississippi territory:— The Chairman declared Mr. B. to be in order. Mr. Bibb then pro ceeded to state, that whatever claim Mr. Livingston had, might have been submitted to the com misMoners for the Orleans territo* ly, who were authorised to decide on land claims of every descripti on ; and that, if his claim had been laid before them he would not have beea removed, pending a decision upon it. The law (said be) which required his removal from the bat ture expressly provide* that per., sons holding complete titles may, and the holders of incomplete ti tles shall file their claims, and in either case that they snail not he disturbed in their possession until the commissioners shall have re ported to Congress- Mr. Living ston was net contented with the same priiibgcs which oth:r clai mants enjoyed ; wfitb the tri bunal, and the only tribunal lyhich others could appeal. But, sir, t is House is called upon to legislate for hi* particular case ; to grant him a peculiar and distinguished privilege which has never before been awarded io any man in this nation. And why ? Because, hav ing taken possession of the public property, and refusing to submit his claim to the commissioners who had competent power and autho rity to hear ami determine it, he has been removed according to law, at the point of the bayonet.— j He canuot plead ignorance of the flaw, and i repeat, that until June \ 1809, he might have filed his claim »cd had u decided before the same tribunal, which decides on all oili er land claims in the territory of Orleans ; that if he had complied with tlie requisitions of the law, he would not have been removed ; that having failed to do so, he hut, acted in his own wrong, and his removal by military force Iras been the necessary consequence. But, sir, there is another aspect in which tins subject presents it„ sell, entitled to the most attentive consideration of the committee If my construction of the law for i asceriaining and adjusting the ti- J tics and claim* to land in the ter* ritery of Orleam be correct, it is j more than probable that this claim, notwnhsianding it ha* not bseii filed, is now opening before the commissioners. That law after enumerating many matters and things which the commissioners shall have power to examine arid determine, adds the power to “ decide them in a summery Way according tq justice and equity on . all claims filed with the register or iecordcr in conformity with the 1 provisions of this act, and on all I complete French or Spanish grants, t the evidence of which, thotigh not - thus fled , may be found of record ; on Hie public records of such grants ” If the petitioner tias any i colour of a title whatsoever, it casi , be found of record, and therefore » is fairly before the commissioners, r That it was intended, Mr. Chair, man, they should have tile power to decide on perfect tides whether . filed or not, is evident from a sub • svqueut provision of the law which r authorise* them not to consider a grant conclusive evidence of thief* j unless they are that such j grant is neither antidated nor oth- I erwise fraudulent. Now if their au,; thority to decide, is limited claim* only which are die.l, this provision is wholly »uga*ory, because no man j holding an aotidaied or fraudulent ; Riant would ever think of filing it , If then they have the power toex- j amine and decide this case, it has became their indispensible durv to exercise it. They were appointed witli the powers of a court, bi t ex . empted from the formalities of courts for the purpose of detecting fraud and collusion, and of adjust ing in a summary way all disputed claims to land within tl*e Territory of Orleans. That this claim is disputed the commissioners cannot ignorant, and unless they have been guilty of a dereliction of duty, it must be at this mo ment either decided or pend, ing before them. This circum stance alone affords a sufficient ob jection to the passage of the bill before you, at least until the com missioners shall have made their report to Congress. But sir, there are other insuperable objections to the bill. While it is admitted that persons holding perfect titles are not compelled to file them, no man can deny that according to law the claim of every holder of imper fect title whiih was not filed be tore June 1308, is forfeited. I. is expressly enacted that the evi dence of such claims shall never be admitted iu any court ot the Uni ted States. What is proposed to be done by this bill ? Why sir, to renew w'isitvef claim, right or ti tle the petitioner may have lud, and which by his own act has becu forfeited, is there any evidence before the House of a continuity of perfect title to the property in ijiesiion ? There is none, and if gentlemen arc determined tosub“ mit this case to a judicial decision, be it s<>; but do not adopt the provtsious of this bill which in. stead of auihoffasiog a trial ca tbe merits ni the dUku as it sow osj. i.sts, tv* 'j* rights, which kiaj, (Sure b:cn forfeit?.;! 1 his would hv* an aft of in" justice to other Claimants, and to the people of the United States to which 1 trust a ma jority of this afiembly will not consent. The amendment I have proposed submits the case to;the ordinary judical tribunal without adding to, or taking from the validity of the claim, and places the petitioner pre cifeiy on the ground he would occupy, if the dispute were be tween him and anv individual in the Orleans Territory.— Does jufiice demand that more (liould be done ?• Certainly not. The people of the United States are one party, Mr. Li vingston the other party, and if the people of the U. S. con lents to grant him a trial before the fame tribunal which would decide between individuals, j I ask you (ir, whether in ; common judice he can claim any more ? To grant him j any advantage he could not other wife enjoy because the U. States happen to be a r pariy in the cale, would bcalTuming the principle that less is due to the ! people in their aggregate capa city than to an individual. The truth is, that Congress alone have the right to decide on the claims of the nation, and if they delegate the power to determine in this calc to any court what soever, it is an act of special fa vor to the petitioner. Sir, if fht ordinary course were pur. sued on the present occasion, we ihould examine the merits of his claim and decide upon it by resolving “ that the prayer ol the petitioner is realonable and ought to be granted,” or “ unreasonable and ought not to be granted,” Sc there would be an end to the quedion. When gentlemen undertake to a fieri that it is not within the province of Congrels to decide claims of this delcription, they finely forget that Congress a lone have decided all such claims from the commencement of the government, and that no other department has the pow er to decide them. But the gentleman from Va. (Mr Shes. fey) tells you that by the con ditution the judicial power ex tends to all controversies to which the United States are a party, whether in the capacity of plaintiff or defendant. This is the firft time, fir, I ever heard the opinion advanced that the United States are suable. Per - mit me to ask the gentleman from Virginia, if the United States are suable, why Mr. Livinodon has not commenced hisaßion againd them ? And if Congress are not competent to decide his claim, why his petition has been presented to this House ? [Mr. Sheffey explained.] Mr. Bibb laid if the gentleman abandons the ground of the fuability of the government I fhali fay noth ing raoie upon the fubjeß. But fir, fiich a doßrine is perfectly incompatible with every idea of sovereignty, and never has been sanctioned in every coun ty- s But, Mr. Chairman, the great difficulties and differences which have arisen in the pre sent debate are the conlequence of confounding the rights of the dates which compoie this union, with the rights of the territories. Gentlemen have laid that according to the conditu tion, no man can be deprived of his land without a trial by jury, and therefore the removal of the petitioner from the Bat ture without such a trial was and unconditional. I admit the correßnefs of this d ;Ctrine in its application to the dates, but I deny it in rela tion to the territories. The condilution is a compact be tween the dates—the ordinance of 1787 is a compact between the territories and the United States, and is to the territories what the conditu.ion is to the dates. Political Sc civil rights are guaranteed by the contti tution to the people of the dates, which are withheld from the ciiizens of the territories.— And, hr, the gentleman from Virginia has yielded this ground upon the piefent occasion, if I have not miflaken the tenor of his resolution. As I under dand it he proposes to appoint commifiioncrs to decide the dispute between the United j States and the petitioner, whose ! decision fhali be final and con- I clufive. Now, I aik him and | die committee, where is the trial |by jury ? Suppose the pro. perty in dispute were within the limits ol a fl ate and had not been cxpreffily ceded by j the date to the general govern ment would not a propolition 1 to determine on the claim of any individual to such proper, ly without a regular judicial trial be obviously unconltituti. onal ? Certainly, fir. And yet until the present moment, the right of Congress to determine by commiflioners all land claims in the territories never has been questioned, It has been the uniform course of proceeding ever since the com. mencement of the government. I could enumerate many in fiances in which rights are ex p«efsly granted to the citizens of the dates by the conftitution,- which both the conftiiution Sc the ordinance deny to citizens G «be territories ; but it is un ncceffary. Congress have king, ly—ablolute powers over the territories, and it the petitioner could not be contented wirfc the enjoyment of perfect liberty in the state—is he volun atily removed to the territory of Orleans, it was his own act and he cannot reasonably claim an exemption from such reftric. tions as are imposed on others. The ordinance veils the right in Congress to make any re* gulations they may find neces sary for iecuring the title of the nation to its foil in terrritoiies. The constitution declares that congress (hallhavepowerfornake all needful rules (3 regulations refpefting the territory or o* tlier public property of the United States. Here is a grant of power limited only by the discretion of Congrelt —this conllitutional authority for the laws under which Mr. Livingston was removed from the Batture, h which some gen tlemen have denounced as uoj conllitutional, That law w a» deemed a needful rule and re* guiation by those to whom a. lone the right of judging was delegated by the constitution —it has not been repealed, and there is no legitimate authority on earth that can make it un conllitutional by any aft wbat foever. Sj r , it is a needful rule and regulation, because it is in dispentible to the lecurity of the national profpetity—without it the public iands would be at the mercy of every speculator in the country. Repeal this law—di. vett yourselves of the power to remove intruders from the pub lic domain, except by acourfe of judicial proceedings, and I venture to assert they never can be removed. No roan does or can believe that a jury of intru ders 'would difpoflefs themselves. But, lay gentlemen, this law,, if conftituticnal, was intended to operate only in the Mifliflippi Territory again! the Yazoo claimants.’ ~ An examination of the law will shew the fallacy of this argument. Among the offences enumerated in the fir ft feftion, against which the law is, intended to piovide, will be found that of making “ a settlement on or taking pof. session of, any lands ceded to the United States by a foreign nation or by a state, &c. &c.” Now, fir, what ceflion had been made to the U* States by a Jor. eign nation when this aft was palled ? The celfion of Lou isiana, and unless the law is con. fideted applicable to that ter ritory, this provision is whol ly nugatory and absurd. But: if any doubt remains on this point it will be completely re moved by refering to a nega gaiive provision contained in the last feftion, 44 Provided that nothing in this feftion shall be construed to apply to any per lon claiming lands in theterrito* ry of Orleans or Louisina tuhofe claim shall have been filed with the proper commiisioners 1 (To be Continued) BALTIMORE, June 4. The ichooaer Fame, Davie, ar rived here on Saturday last, in 10 days from La Guira. By this ves sel we have a confirmation of the news of Caraccus being declared tree and independent. All the of ficers who derived their authority Ilrom the mother country were sent away. The captain general and several officers have arrived in a brig at Norfolk. The friendship of the United States is much cour ted by the new government j our citizens there are treated with much civility and kindness. The whole province of Caraccus is re ported to have followed the exam ple of its capital. Tha present go vernment has reduced the dotiee to 16 i-2 per cent, on imports, and 12 i-2 on exports, at also a rcdcc.