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gongkkss. # House of Representatives. April 13. Dr. Bibb’s Speech on the Bill approving the meant to aiccr tain the title *o the BATTUIIK- Mr Bibb said he felt nodispo* s';«ion to delay unnecessarily a con elusion of the subject, or to tres. pas* on the patience of the com mittee. Indeed said he if my gard for the feelings of otherscould P'wsibly permit m: from day to day to address an assembly un vnilhig to hear (of which unfortu. nutety for this body, and for the nation we have too many examples) I cun foil the respect l feel fur my seif would forbid it. But, sir, cal. ltd upon to adopt a measure which innovates on the established usa. geg of the country, sets a prece dent the moat dangerous and alar., suing, places the government u». der the controu! of intrigue, and m my apprehension, sacrifices the sovereignty of the nation on the altar of inordinate speculation, I cannot, nor will not be silent. Pass this hill—pursue this ex. traordinary course of proceeding, and it becomes the entering wedge which is to enable a horde of spe culators who infest the capitol, & distract the nation, to triumph over the virtue of the country. And I do believe that the bill is supported by a portion of this assembly with a view to that object. Yes »ir, it is-thc object pf some gentlemen 'o establish a precedent «in fneor of the Yazoo claimants, and I w>sh it' to be understood. Can rhf.ve who are willing on die prvseut occasion to grant a privilege to Mr. Living, siou unheard of hi the history of this government, refuse with any soil of consistency the same privi. lege to oilier intruders who have been removed from the public lands in the same way and under the i. reae law. They canrat, nor it imw isarention tu do so.' Ht is true, attempts hove brvu made to distinguish the case Wt the petiti oner from that of tha Yazoo clai. mants who were removed from land* in ij,* .Mississippi Territ&rv ; but whatever difference there may be m the origin of their claims, none exists m the treatment the individuals have received, nor can any reasons he urged for granting * a judicial trial in the one case, Wihich are not equally applicable to* the other. But, sir, we are told that the case of the petitioner in volves the very existence of our free government—that he lias been removed from his property at the point of the bayonet—and that if such an example shall be sancti one d by the representatives ofihe people, every man in the nation b cemes a tenant at the will of the l*i etident, li is not uiy purpose to enquire why this case alouc slioulj. produce so much excite, meat when the removal of hun dreds in the same way has passed unnoticed ; but I will shew ia the course of my remarks, that all we have luai d upon the subject is mere declamation, and that the ieaiful apprehensions which have 6een expressed by some gentlemen arc perfectly unfounded. As to the appeals which have been made to the sympathies of the commit tee, and the charge which has been urged of wanton oppression on the put of the President towards tins individual, they cannot teach my feelings. However much i may iod tor the people of New Orleans, who have been distui oed in the use ot the batturc, which they had been accustoimd to enjoy ever since it existed, I have no sympa. thy for the disturber of their re- j pose. While the legislative «nd executive departments of the gov I ernment have been using their best endeavors to conciliate the alfcc- 1 tions of those people, this man has . not been less busy in creating dis content among them. lie has been . the evil genius of the territory, and when genii, men undertake to . declaim against the conduct of Mr * JtfFersou, and io favor ot hit inno. cence, they should recollect the circumstances under which he rc. moved to N Orleans. It i* impos sible that.any naan in' hit states' ; - | % • can believe Mr. Livingston lias ac quired a just claim to the property worth from half a million to one million of dollars, the value of which was as well known to others as to himself, when it is notorious that he in a bankrupt—a public de faulter to a very large amount— [Mr. Poindexter called Mr. Bibb to order—Mr 15. replied, ait down sir, I am in order, you are not ] — 'l'he Chairman, according to the rule of the House, required Mr B. [ to sit down, and Mr. P. to state in writing the words objected to, 1 which were “ it is notorious that the petitioner is a bankrupt.” Mr. B. had leave of the chair to ex. plain. He considered himself with in the strict rule of order. His object was to shew that the silua. tion of the petitioner rendered ii almost impossible that he could have acquired a fair claim to ttie property in question ; that it must be a collusive speculation, and therefore that he was not entitled to the peculiar favor of the nation al legislature. Indeed, said Mr. B. if I am not mistaken, he has acknowledged the fact in his peti tion, for mentioning which 1 have been interrupted by the delegate from the Mississippi territory:— The Chairman declared Mr. B. to be in order. Mr. Bibb then pro ceeded to state, that whatever claim Mr. Livingston had, might have been submitted to the com missioners for the Orleans territo* ry, who were authorised to decide on land claims of every descripti on ; and that, if his claim had been laid before them he would not have been removed, pending a decision upon it. The law (said be) which required his removal from the bat ture expressly provides that per„ son* holding complete titles w/rr//, and the holders of incomplete ti tles shall file their claims, and in either case that they snail not be disturbed in their possession until the commissioners shall have re ported to Congress. Mr. Living ston was net contented with the same privileges which other clai mants enjoyed ; wkh tl.c h •■> ? tri bunal, and the only tribunal which others could appeal. But, sir, this House is called upon to legislate tor his particular case ; to grant him a peculiar and distinguished privilege which has never before been awarded io any man in this nation. And why l Because, hav ing taken possession of the public property, and refusing to submit his claim to the commissioners who had competent power and autho rity to hear and determine it, he has been removed according to law, at the point of the bayonet.— He canuot plead ignorance of the law, and 1 repeat, that until June 1809, he might have filed his claim *r.d had it decided before the same tribunal, which decides on all mit er land claims in the territory of Orleans ; that if he had complied with the requisitions of the law, ie would not have been removed ; that having failed to do so, he has acted in his own wroug, aiid his removal by military force Isas been the necessary consequence. But, sir, there is another aspect in which tins subject presents it self, entitled to the most attentive | consideration of the committee If my construction of the law for I ascertaining and adjusting the ti j tics and claims to land in the ter ritory of Orleans be correct, it is j more than probable that this claim, notwithstanding it has not bs = u liled, is now opening before the commissioners. That law after enumerating many matters and things winch the commissioners shall have power to examine and determine, adds the power to “ decide them in a summery way according t<j justice and equity on . all claims filed with the register or j iecorder in conformity with the provisions of this act, and on all I complete French or Spanish grants , the evidence of which, though not thus Jiledy inay be found of record on me public records of such grants ” If the petitioner lias any colour of a title whatsoever, it can be found of record, and therefore is fairly before the commissioners. That it was intended, Mr. Chair. I msn, they should have the power to decide on perfect titles whether filed ornoi, is evident from a sub sequent provision of the law which auihuiuet them not to consider a graat conclusive evidence of title#, unless they are that such grant is nriiher antidated nor oth er wise fraudulent. Now if their au. thority to tlec'de, is limited claim* only which are filed, this provision • is wholly augamry, because no mm ! holding an aniidaied or frauduhnt Riant would ever thmk of fihagit If then they have tiie power toex amine and decide this case, it has became their indispcnsible dutv to exercise it. They were appointed with the powers of a court, bit ex empted from the formalities of courts for the purpose of detecting fraud and collusion, and of trust ing in a summary way all disputed claims to land within the Territory of Orleans. That this claim is disputed the commissioners cannot nowf'oe ignorant, and unless they have been guilty of a dereliction of duty, it must be at this mo ment either decided or pend, ing before them. This circum stance alone affords a sufficient ob jection to the passage of the bill before you, at least until the com missioners shall have made their report to Congress. But sir, ihere are other insuperable objections to the bill. While it is admitted that persons holding perfect titles are not compelled to file them, no man can deny that according to law the claim of every holder of imper fect title which was not filed be. tore June 1308, is forfeited. I. i s expressly enacted that the evi dence of such claims shall never be admitted in any court of the Uni ted States. VVhat is p r opostd to be done by this bill ? Why sir, to renew whatever claim, right or ti tle the f>~ s tit!oa«r easy have had, and which by his own act has been forfeited. Is there any evideace before the House of a continuity of perfect title to the property in question ? There is none, and if gentlemen arc determined to sub” mit this case to a judicial decision, be it so ; but do not adopt the provisious of this bill which in stead of aeih©rising a trial o g, t |, e merits the cEaku as it esj. i.stg, rt-s* -.iu which k.vs itaro been forfeited 1 his would id? an atl of in" juflice to other Claimants, and to the people of the United States to which 1 trull a ma jority of this assembly will not consent. The amendment I have proposed submits the case ordinary judical tribunal witnout adding to, or taking from the validity of the claim, and places the petitioner pre afeiy on the ground he would occupy, if the dispute were be tween him and any individual in the Orleans Territory.— Does jultice demand that more lliould be done ?* Certainly not. The people of the United States are one party, Mr. Li vingston the other party, and if the people of the U. S. con lents to grant hitn a trial before the fame tribunal which would decide between individuals, j I ask you fir, whether in i common jufticc he can claim I any more ? To grant him j any advantage he could not otherwise enjoy because the U. States happen to be a in thecaie, would bcaffuming the principle that less is due to the people in their aggregate capa city than to an individual. The truth is, that Congress alone have the right to decide on the claims of the nation, and if they delegate the power to determine ' in this case to any court what soever, it is an act of special fa vor to the petitioner. Sir, if the ordinary course were pur. sued on the present occasion, we lliould examine the merits of his claim and decide upon it by resolving “ that the prayer ol the petitioner ii realonable and ought to be granted,” or “ unreasonable and ought not to be granted,” Sc there would be an end to the quellion. When gentlemen undertake to iffert that it is not within the province of Congrels to decide claims of this delcription, they • \ finely forget that Congress a | lone have decided all such ! claims from the commencement ’ i of the government, and that no i other department has the pow er to decide them. But the ! gentleman from Va. (Mr Shes. ’ fey) tells you that by the con dilution the judicial power ex ! tends to all controversies to which the United States are a party, whether in the capacity of plaintiff or defendant. This is the fit ft time, fir, I ever heard the opinion advanced that the United States are suable. Per - mit me to ask the gentleman from Virginia, if the United States are suable, why Mr. Livinofton has not commenced hisafclion againll them ? And if Congress are not competent to decide his claim, why his petition has been presented to this House ? [Mr. Sheffey explained.] Mr. Bibb laid if the gentleman abandons the ground of the Liability of the government I shall fay noth ing move upon the fubjed. But fir, Lch a doflrine is perfectly incompatible with every idea of sovereignty, and never has been sanctioned in every coun ty- i But, Mr. Chairman, the great difficulties and differences which havearifen in the pre sent debate are the conlequence of confounding the rights of the flares which compose this union, with the rights of the territories; Gentlemen have laid that according to the conllitu tion, no man can be deprived of bis land without a trial by jury, and therefore the removal of the petitioner from the Bat ture without such a trial was and unconstitutional. I sdmit the corrednefs of this ; 4 iCtrine in its application to the dates, but I deny it in rela tion to the territories. The constitution is a compact be tween the states—the ordinance of 1787 is a compact between the territories and the United States, and is to the territories what the conftituiion is to the (fates. Political Sc civil rights are guaranteed by the confti. tution to the people of the states, which are withheld from the citizens of the territories.- - And, fir, the gentleman from Virginia has yielded this ground upon the present occasion, if I have not mistaken the tenor of his resolution. As I under ftanr! it he proposes to appoint commilfioners to decide the dtfpute between the United Slates and the petitioner, vhofe ; decision fit all be final andcon | c, ufive. Now, I ask him and j ‘ hc committee, where is the trial I b x J ur y ? Suppofc the pro. perty in dispute were within | of a ft ate and had not been expreffily ceded by J the ft ate to the general govern ment would not a proposition to determine on the claim of ®ny individual to such proper* i a regular judicial I lr,a bc ohvioufly unconltuuti. ( ona ? Certainly, fir. And yet until the present moment, the right of Congress to determine by commiflioners all land claims in the territories never has been questioned. It has been the uniform course of Proceeding ever since the com mencement of the government’. I could enumerate many i n . fiances tn which rights are ex >° <hc citizen. of ‘ h * ‘* al " b y lh ' constitution, which both the constitution & the ordinance deny l 0 citizen, . ot the territories ; but itisun- !l K CCC Kr y r C °" 6 ' efs have king. 1 )-abfolute power, over the ! <crruor.es, and it the petition^ could not be contented wi»L the enjoyment of pcrfeaiibertr m the state—is he removed to the territory of Orieant, it was his own' act and he cannot reasonably claim a n exemption from such reftric. lions as are imposed on others The ordinance vests ihe right in Congress to make any re . gulations they may find necef. fary for securing the title of the nation to its foil in terrritoties The constitution declares that congress fhallhavepowertomake all needful rule# (3 regulation* refpefltng the territory or 0 * I ther public property 0 f the United States. Here is a grant of power limited only by the discretion of Congref* —this conflitutioaal authority for the laws under which Mr, Livingston was removed from the Batture, k which some gen tlemen hsvc denounced as conltitutional. That Saw wi* deemed a needful rule and re< gulation by those to whom a. lone the right of judging wat delegated by the constitution —it has not been repealed, and there is no legitimate authority on earth that can make it un constitutional by any aft what soever. Sir, it is a needful rule and regulation, because it is in dispenlible to the security of the national profpetity—without it the public lands would be atthe mercy of every speculator in the country. Repeal this law —di ve It yourselves of the power to remove intruders from the pub lie domain, except by acourfe of judicial proceedings, and I venture ro assert they never can be removed. No man doe* or can believe that a jury of irnru derg should difpoflefs tbemfelves. But, lay gentlemen, this law, if constitutional, was intended to operate oniy irnfce Miffiifippi Territory again! the Yazoo claimants.’ An examination of the law will fhewthe fallacy of this argument. Among the offences enumerated in the fir ft fefclion, against which the law if, intended to ptovide, will be found that of making “ a settlement on or taking pof. session of, any lands ceded to the United States by a foreign nation or by a state, &c. &c Now, fir, what ceflion had been made to the U* States by a for. cign nation when this aft was palfed ? The ceflion of Lou isiana, and unless the law is con. fideted applicable to that ter ritory, this provision is whol ly nugatory and absurd. But: if any doubt remains on this point it will be completely re moved by refering to a nega gative provision contained in the last feftion, u Provided that nothing in this feftion shall be construed to apply to any per son claiming lands in theterrito ry of Orleans or Louisina whose claim shall have been filed with the proper commissioners." (To be Continued) BALTIMORE June 4. The schooaer Fame, Davis, ar rived here on Saturday last, in 10 days from La Guira. By tbi» ves sel we have a confirmation of the news of Caraccus being declared free and independent. All the of* ficers who derived their authority from the mother country wereseDt away. The captain general and several officer* have arrived in a brig at Norfolk. The friendship of the United State* is much ceur ted by the new government; our citizens there are treated with much civility and kindness. The whole province 9f Caraccus is re ported to have followed the exam ple of its capital. The present go vernment has reduced the duties to 16 i-2 per cent, on imports, and 12 i*2 on exports, as also a reduc.