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4 TTTF ATLANTA GEORGIAN AND NEWS. Continued From Page 2. Can you com<* back this evening: and do it?” Conley: “Yes, 1 am coming to get my money.” Frank: ‘‘Well. I am goinr home to get my dinner now .nd you come back here about to minutes from now. It is near my dinner hour and I will go home and get my dinner and fix up the money.” Conley: How will 1 get in?” Frank: "There will be a place for you to get in all right, but listen, if you are not coming back let me know and I will take those things and put them down with the body.” Conley: “All right; I will be back in 40 minutes.” Conley looks at Frank; Frank looks around Then Conley gets up. stands by the chair, looks down at Fr^nk and Frank grabs a scratch pad from the typewriter table, starts to make a memorandum from the paper, but his hand trembles so that he can’t. Frank gets up to po. Frank: “Now. Jim, you keep your mouth shut, you hear 9 ” Conley: “All right. I will keep my mouth shut and I will be back here about 40 minutes.” Conley goes out. When the statement was read. Dorsey was on his feet with an oo- Jection that the statement whs inac curate In that things that occurred Tuesday were mixed with the things of Saturday, and this evidence would be nothing but an opinion. Judge Roan ruled that if it was an opinion he would have to exclude it. Attor ney Arnold said that he was going to introduce actual time tents Judge Roan—I will let it in. then, because under these circumstances it would be fact and not opinion. Dorsey—This witness can not pass upon the time it took Frank to choke the little girl. Attorney Arnold (Jumping up. an grily)—Of course, he doesn’t know how long it took Conley to choke her. Judge Roan—I think I understand the question now. There is no evi dence here. Mr. Arnold, that they went through the movements as rap idly as Conley di(% and I think it would only be an opinion Arnold—These men went as fast as they could. Judge Roan—But the negro nevo said how fast he walked Arnold—Is your honor going to bind us by the unsupported story of this negro? Rosser—Your honor, experimenta tion is purely for establishing relevant accuracy. Even the negro could not go through the same movements again in the same length of time. Dorsey—Your honor, these meu were not under pressure. They ha 1 not just choked a poor little innocent girl to death They were not trying to dispose of the body. I challenge them to rite any authorities. 1 sub mit that if anyone of less standing and ability than these two gentlemen should urge such a proposition, you would not pay any attention to it. 1 think it is a fact that they have laid down the proposition that makes you reluctant to decide against them Judge Roan They or anyone else can not influence me to do anything wrong. . j . Dorsey—d didn’t mean that 1 have respect for their opinions, hut my authorities are clear that non-expert testimony based on tests outside of court is inadmissible. If Dr. Owens can get up here and testify that he thinks Conley could not have done it as he said he did. he might testify that he could have committed the murder. Then .ve could produce wit ness after witness to show that <’on- lev did have time to do what he said. Thus the absolute absurdity of the proposition is revealed. Attorney Arnold read several au thorities. Judge Roan What is the reason thi« witness can't be.called hack this afternoon’’ 1 will rule on it now. if you gentlemen insist, but 1 would rather you would produce your au thorities. to see if you can And any Georgia cases.” Dr. Owens was excused until o’clock * More Witnesses Score Dalton. O. A. Nix, of Gwinett County, was r . V • . ' ■ i Mm g. What Is your business?—A. Law- Jf Q. Do you know C. B Dalton? A q is he the man who was tried in Gwinett County for stealing” A. Yes. q Would you belive him on oath?— A No. Solicitor Dorsey declined to cross- examine the witness and he was ex cused. „ Samuel Craig, a farmer, of Gwinett Countv. was next called and declared that he knew Dalton and would not believe him under oath. On cross- examination. Craig said it had been fifteen years since he had known Dalton. The witness was excused and B. L. Patterson, a farmer, of Gwinett County, was the next wit ness. Arnold questioned him. Q Where do you live?—A. Gwinett County. g. What is your business?—A. I am a farmer. Q. How many acres of land do you own?—A. 1 never counted them. Q. Do you know C. B. Dalton?—A. Yes! Q. Would you believe him under oath?—A No. The witness was excused and Rob ert Craig, of Gwinnett County was nailed. Under Attorney Arnold's questioning Craig declared he owned 800 acres of land: that he knew C. B Dalton and would not believe him on oath. Ed Craig was the next witness. He declared he was a farmer of Gwin nett County, who had known C. B. Dalton and would not believe him on oath. T. L. Ambrose and J. P Byrd, also of Gwinnett County, testified along the same line as their predecessors. Brooklyn Man First Character Witness. Alfred Dane, of Brooklyn. N. Y., was the first character witness to be Introduced by the defense. He is a vealthy merchant of that city. Ar- Id questioned him Ij What is your business?—A. A merchant of New York Q. Do you know' Leo M Frank?—A I Yes, J knew him at Pratt Institute from 1898 to 1902, and later at Cor- i nell. <4. You say you knew him at Pratt Institute for four years? A. Yes Q. Did you know him at Cornell?— A. Yes; I didn't go to Cornell, but I saw him much in Brooklyn. Q. How old was he when you were together at Pratt Institute?—A. Be tween 17 and 21 years. Q. Do you know his general char acter?—A. I do. Q What is it—good or had?—A Good. Dorsey did not cross-examine the witness. He was excuse! and Philip Nash, of Ridgewood, N. J, was called. Arnold examined him. j Q. What is your business?—A. Elec trical engineer for a telephone com pany. Q. Where did you know Leo M. Frank? A. i was with him at Pratt Institute for four years. Q. Do you know his general char acter?—A Yes. Q. Whs It good or bad?—A. Good The witness was excused without cross-examination. Richard A Knight, of Brooklyn, a consulting en gineer and a college mate of Frank’s a i both the Pratt Institute and Cor nell. was called by Attorney Arnold. Q Do you know' Leo M. Frank?— A. Yes. g Where did you know him?—A. I was his college mate at Pratt Insti- tue and at Cornell. Q. Do you know his general charac ter?— A. Yes Q. What Is it?—A. Good. Former Office Boy Called by Defense. The wit.iesM was “xcuserl and Frank Payne, a former office boy at the Na tional Pencil Company, wa* called Q. How old are you?—A. 16. Q. When did you last work at the pencil factory?—A. About 8 months ago. Q Where are you working now?— A. Nowhere. Q Were you there last Thanksgiv ing day?—A. Yes. g, Do you remember what kind of a day It was?—A. It snowed. Q Were Mr. F'rank and Mr. Schiff there*’ A. Yes. g What did you do?—A. Mr. Schiff sent me up to the fourth floor to fix some boxes. Q Who was up there?—A. Jim Conley. Q. What time did he leave there?—• A. A. out 11 o’clock. Q. What time did you leave?—A. About 11 o’clock. Q. Did you see Jim Conley when you left?—A. No. Q. What time did you leave the factory on Saturday?—A. About 5 o’clock. g. DP’ Mr Frank ever have any women there?—A. No. Q. How many weeks were you there?—A. Five or six. Hooper took the witness on cross- exa mination. Q. What were your duties there?— A. General office boy. Q You spent most of your time In Frank’s office?—A. Yes. Q. How long since you quit work ing there?—A. It has been seven or eight months ago. g. Did you ever see any beer bot tles around there?—A. No. Q. You say Jim Conley was there 1m( Thanksgiving morning? A Yet Q What time did you notice him? — A. He was sweeping around there until about 10:30 o’clock. g. What time did you leave?—A About 11 o’clock. Lemmie Quinn Called to Stand. The witness was excused and Lem mie Quinn was ('ailed. Arnold ques tioned the witness. Q Where did you work?—A. I am foreman of the metal department of the National Pencil Company. Q Is that the department Mary Phagan worked in?—A. Yes. Q. Do you recollect Memorial day? — A. Yes. it was a holliday at the fac-^ tory. Q Do you recollect the occasion "hen Mr. Barrett discovered the spots on the floor of the metal room and some strands of hair on a lathe? —A Yes. He mentioned those dis coveries to me. Q. Did he ever mention any re ward he expected to get if Mr. Frank was convicted?- A. Yes. he mentioned 12,700 once and another time $4,500. He said he had been told that if Mr Frank was convicted there wasn’t any chance to keep him out of his re ward. He wanted my advice. 1 told him I was not a lawyer and could not tell him Q Had anyone noticed them before Barrett said he discovered them?— A. No. Q. Do you remember a man named Gilbert getting cut in the metal room and bleeding around the women’s dressing room?—A. Yes. g. When was It?—A About a year ago. Q Do you know of anyone being cut since then?—A. Yes. a boy was cut on the hand. g. Did he go by the women’** dress ing room?—A. Yes. Q. Did you know what that stuff was over the spot on the floor?—A. No. g. Do you know what has ever be come of that hair”—A. 1 think the detectives have it. Hair Might Have Blown Into Lathe. Q Is there any place in that room where the Mrls dress their hair?—A. Why, there! a little gas Jet about ten feet from the lathe. Q This jet Is between the lathe and the west windows and a breeze might blow the hair across to this lathe, might it not?—A. Yes. Q. What time did you get your pay Friday night before the murder?—A About 20 minutes to 6. Q. What was the last time before the murder that you saw Mary Pha gan?—A The Monday before. Q .Why did she not work that week?—A. We were out of material and she was laid off. Q. Did >ou ever see Mr. Frank speak to Mary Phagan?—A. No. I never did. Q. You were examined about all these things by the Coroner and they were impressed on your memory, were they not?—A. Yes Mr. guinn told in detail what he OFFICE BOY TESTIFIES IN DEFENSE OF FRANK ALONZO MANN. did during the morning up to the time he returned to the factory. He said the front door of the factory was unlocked. Q. When you got up to Frank’s outer office was the door open or shut?—A. Open. Q. How about the door to the in ner office?—A. Open. Q. How about the safe door in the outer office?—A. I think it was open. Q. What time was this? A. About 12:20. Fixed Time by Going to Market. Q. Why do you fix the time at that? A Well, when I left home I was anx ious to get up town before the meat markets closed. 1 left home at 15 minutes to 12. Doing the things 1 did, I Judge it was about 12:20 o'clock when I got to the factory. Q. You say you left home at 11:45, did you look at your watch?—A. Yes. Q. What time,did you want to get to town?—A. Before 12. because I was afraid the stores would be closed. Q. How long did It take you to walk to the market? A. About twelve min utes. Q. What time was it when you got there?—A. The whistle blew while I was there. Q. Can you tell how long you re mained there?—A. No. Q. You went to the pharmacy from there?—A. Yes. Q. How far was that from the mar ket?—A. About three doors. Q. What pharmacy was that?—A. Benjamin's. Q. How long did you st*\y there?— A. About three minutes. Q. Did you see anyone else at the factory besides Mr. Frank?—A. No Q. What office was he in?--A. The Inner office. Q. What did you say?—A. I ask^l him lr Mr. Schiff was In. He said, "No.” Q. Did you say anything else?—A. 1 made some remark about his not being able to keep me away even on a holida y. g What time was It when you left? —A. About 12:20. g. Where did you go?—A. To De vore’s pool parlor. It was about 12:30 then. Q. Where did you go from the-e?— A. To the cafe, where 1 met Miss Hail and Mrs. Freeman. White Substance Used on Machines. Q. What did you go to see Schiff for?—A. We had a baseball wager and 1 went there to talk to him about it. Q. How many minutes did vou sta$ at the Busy Bee?—A. I can not tell exactly. Q But you do know what time you went to the poolroom?—A. Yes. Q. Did you talk to anyone at the poolroom?—A. Yes. Me Murray. g. Where did you go from Devore's 9 A The Atlanta Theater. Q. How long did you stay?—A. About fifteen minutes. I bought tick ets for th«' night. g. Where did you go then?—A. Back to Devore’s. Q. Who is John Lamey?—A. H* worked with me. Q. Did you go to the factory Sun day?—A. Yes. Q. Whom did you talk to?—A. Mr. Darley and Mr. Mon tag. g. How lone did you look at tho body? A. Three or four minutes. g. Did you see Mr. Frank Sunday? —A. Yes. g. At Bloomfield's?—A. Yes Q. How was he dressed?—A *n blue of black. Q. What is the purpose of that white preparation used at the plant? A. To clean the machines. Carried in Buckets, Spatters on Floors. Q. How was it carried?—A. In buckets. g. It spatters over everything?—A. Yes. Q. Did you see Frank Monday?—A. Yes. Monday afternoon. Q. How was he dressed?—In brown. g. Look at this picture (showing the witness the State’s diagram drawn by Bert Green, of The Georgian). Does it show Mary Phagan's machine?—A. No. Q. Point out the place where Bar rett claims to have found the hair. Did you find any blood there?—A. No. g. Do you recall the place near the closet where the negro said he found the body?—A. Yes. Q. Did you see any blood there?—A. No. ^ Q Well, if somebody had washed up blood in one place would it no«. have been the reasonable thing to wash it up in another? ”1 object,” said Dorsey. “That’s a question for argument, your honor. "It’s such a good argument,” said Arnold, “that I could not help It. I withdraw the question." Court took a recess until 2 o’clock. The cross-examination of Ouinn was to be taken up immediately then. Argument on Admissibility Of Evidence Resumed. The argument on the inadmlsibllity of Dr. Owens’ testimony was resumed with the opening of the afternoon ses sion. Attorney Rosser addressed the court. "The rule at the beginning of this hearing was tha. we would be per mitted to introduce any evidence that would tend to shed light on the mys tery.” he said. Attorney Rosser at this juncture read a Georgia decision, tending to show evidence of this kind as being admissible. Judge Roan interrupted. “That part of it is all right. Mr. Rosser," he salo "The only point is whether the conditions are similar.” Rosser: “All right, your honor, I will rend you soiru authorities on that point.” Attorney Rosser read a decision in a case in which such an experiment had been allowed in which the jury could make allowances for the differences. "We will show that this man walked as fast as he could,” said Rosser. “Is it possible that this court could have so far forgotten its common sense as to permit this jury to draw Its own conclusions?” “Only God Almighty can made iden tity.” Rosser continued, "and He has- n t done it yet. There are no two leaves alike in the forest. I said a while ago that It was a one-horsed lawyer w ho wrote the opinion cited by my friend Dorsey. With a few' exceptions, you and 1 know’ the au thors of law books have not common senoe enough to make a living prac ticing law. I don’t think any more unsound principle of law could be embodied in the statutes than the one involved here. And I don’t want to get in the contempt of the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeals. A man’s life is involved and important light might be excluded. One of the cases I was just showing you said In cases of dis similarity that the judge shall instruct the jury to make allowances.” Dorsey took up the argument. "I take no issue with Mr. Rosser,” said the Solicitor, “about this Geor gia cage by the Court of Appeals. That was an expert matter—the question of hot) long it would take to stop an engine. In the Moran case it was a question of whether a stick was a deadly weapon or not. It was de clared to be a case not admitting opinion evidence. The Jury was Just as capable of judging as the wit ness." Raises Question of Strain. Judge Roan: "They propose to prove by Dr. Owens how long It took persons he watched to go through the ht!ng« Conley said he w’ent through with. He *s to Si«ite f^cts. 1 won't permit any opinion and I don’t want to hear any more authorit> on it. It is a questio of whether they can go through substantially the same things as Conley said he did as regards speech, pressure. • etc." Dorsey: “Who can imagine the pressure they were under after mur dering a little girl?” Arnold: "All during this trial we have admitted this kind of evidence. We had policemen to say they had sat in the toilet and tried to see how- much of the body of Mary Phagan Newt Lee could see. We asked the policemen—they asked the man.” Judge Roan: "Mr. Arnold. I don’t want anything on that. 1 want to know whether there Is enough simi larity between the cases for the jury to draw’ it» own conclusions.” Arnold: “We know, your honor." Judge Roan: “Well this man don’t know how long Conley stood over the body.” Arnold: "We think that negro’s statement was sufficiently graphic as to detail to admit of the comparison.” Judge Admits Evidence. Judge Roan: “I have some doubts about It, but I will give the defendent the benefit of the doubt and allow the evidence to be admitted.” The Jury was ordered brought in. Lemmie Quinn was then recalled to the stand. Attorney Arnold con tinued direct examination. q Where are you working now?— A. At the pencil factory*. Dorsey took the witness on cross- examination Q. When did the last man bleed on the second floor?—A. The last man dangerously hurt was a year ago. Q. Was that a year from now, or a year from the date of the murder? —A I mean juat what I said Q. Can’t you tell us the truth about It? Arnold: “He has answered the question." Dosey: “I am cross-examining the witness.” A. I can’t tell you the exact time. Q When was the last time you no ticed blood from this man?—A. Some time ago. I don’t rememebr how long. Q Did It look like this blood found in front of the ladles’ dressing room? —-A. Yes, except the last I saw there was darker. Q. You told Mr. Starnes, Mr Black and the other officers that you did not go Into the factory on that Saturday? —A. Yes. Q You did not tell anyone about being in the factory until after you had been down to see Frank, did you? —A. No, sir. Q. What did Mr. Frank say when you told him?—A. He said he remem bered seeing me, but didn’t remember the time. Q Didn’t he tell you to keep it quiet until he had seen his lawyers? A. He didn’t say keep it quet. He said he would talk with his lawyer. Q. When was this that you saw* Frank?—A. Tuesday after the mur der. Q- You were with the police all day Monday and said nothing about it —A. I wasn’t with them all day. Explains Why He Was Led to Tell of Visit. Q. Off and on, all day?—A. I saw them a number of times. Q Are you absolutely Pure about what time you were in Frank’s of fice?—A. Reasonably sure. Q. Do you deny that you told Officer Payne that you had not been to the factory since Friday?—A. I do. Q. You admit refreshing Frank’s memory about your visit*:—A. Yes. Q. Tell us just what you said.—A. I told him that I was there and he said he remembered it. but not the time except that it was after the time Mary Phagan was there. g. Didn’t you t-11 him, ”1 don’t like to be brought into it, but If It will help you, I will”?—A. Yes. Q. Ho told hl,s lawyers and said they advised him to mention it, and you told the police?—A. Yes Q. Did you talk to Barrett before the Coroner’s injuest?—A. No; that was after the Coroner’s Inquest. Q. Where is Miss Jefferson, who dificovered these spots, working now? —A. At the pencil factory. Q. Are you sure of that?—A. She vras there yesterday in the polishing department. Q. You saw’ her?—A. Yes. Q. Now, you didn’t tell the officers you were In the factory on Satur day, April 26, until the following Sat urday?—A The next Saturday. Q. Didn’t you say this to the Coro ner’s Jury? That you told Frank you were there, and he said he would mention it to his attorneys to see w’hether it was favorable or not?— I don’t know* whether I said favorable or not. State Seeking Flaws In Quinn Testimony. Q. Why was it that you said It was .between 12 and 12:30, and that you arrived at the poolroom at 12:25, and now say you arrived at Frank’s of fice betw’een 12:20 and 12:25 and ar rived at the ooolroom at 12:30?—A. I overlooked part of It. Q. Didn’t they ask you If you could be definite and you said you never looked at a clock until you got to the poolroom?—A. Yes. Q I w’ill ask you now about thi back door. Was It locked or barred? A. Closed. Q. On May 12, in the presence of Detectives Lanford. Starnes and mv- self, did you not sign this statement? —A. Yes. Q. Well, didn’t you say that there was a bar on that door that cut off communication from the upper floor and didn’t you s. / It was customarily kept closed?—A. Yes Q. Now, didn’t I go further with you and say this: "That the door that leads from the office floor to the floor above is kept closed.” and didn’t you say, “No, the door is closed with a bar across It.” Now, isn’t that true? —A. Yes. Q. Well, was that bar across it?— A. On pay days. Q. Now*, Mr. Quinn, I want you to tell me how- you make these state ments to-day and made entirely oth er statements before the Coroner?— A. I don’t know. Wasn’t Sure of Time; Figured It Out Since. Q. You don’t know? All right. Now, wasn’t the first time you ever men tioned Devoe’s you said that you were there at 12:30?—A. I told you that when I made mv first statement. I was not sure of the time, but I have since figured It out. Q. What time did you leav.s home? —A. Eleven forty-five. Q. How do you know* what tlm* vou reached the town?—A. T figured It oat. Q. Now tei? me how you changed the statements you made on May 5? —A. I never recall certain things. Arnold took the witness. Q. When you made that statement, you had forgotten about going to Wolshetmer's. hadn’t you?—A. Yes. Q. Who reminded you of that?—A. My wife. The witness was excused, and Oscar Pappenheimer was called. Arnold questioned him. Q. What is your business?—A. Manufacturer of furniture. Q Are you a stockholder 1n the National Pencil Company?—A. Yes. Q. For how long?—A. Since March, 1910. Q. Have you been getting compara tive statments from Leo M. Frank?— A. Yes. Q. Up to the time the postoffice Continued on Page 7, Column 1. On sale August 22. 23. 24. Cor respondingly low rates from other points. New* steel diners and sleepers. MEN AND RELIGION BULLETIN NO. 75. And whoso A girl— All men would help her. House Bill No. 4 will save girls who are children in years. The PRISON COMMISSION has favored the Bill. The PENITENTIARY COMMITTEE of the House has approved it. The COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS with WHEATLEY of Sumter as Chairman unanimously recommended its adoption carrying a $30,000 appropriation. And men believe that GOVERNOR SLATON approves the measure. Yesterday, Tuesday, the HOUSE COMMITTEE ON RULES, whose Chairman is the Speaker of the House, BURWELL, with BLACKBURN of Fulton its Vice Chairman, put the Bill upon the calendar. Without this, the measure would have been lost. Among those helping to pass it were NUNNALLY of Floyd and SHUPTRINE of Chatham. And for it BARRY WRIGHT did splendid service. THE VOTE WAS 115 TO 46. The forty-six who opposed it did not do so with the thought of harm ing girls. They misunderstood. At heart—if they consider—they too approved the JONES MILLS’ BILL establishing the “Georgia Training School for Girls.’’ It is no one man’s measure—no group of men can claim it—it is a law for the want of which girl children of Georgia have suffered. You would not continue to hurt and degrade them—you, too, would help. 0 To day the Bill is in the Senate. The COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS of that body, whose Chairman is Senator W. W. STARK, now has it under consideration; and the Senate RULES COMMITTEE will doubtless see that it is heard. The President of the Senate, RANDOLPH ANDERSON, of Chat ham, has long favored a Reformatory for girls in Georgia. And since the question of taxation and fina ces has been settled, the only argument against the bill has been removed. Of it, The Morning News of Savannah has rightly said: “It is hard to see how anybody can truthfully say that it would not profit the State to spend $30,000 in that way. ” \ The Senate will doubtless pass the Bill as it was adopted by the House, without an opposing vote. All Georgia will approve. The Executive Committee of the Men and Religion Forward Movement