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House of Representatives.
April 13.
Dr. Bibb’s Speech
on the
Bill approving the meant to aiccr
tain the title *o the
BATTUIIK-
Mr Bibb said he felt nodispo*
s';«ion to delay unnecessarily a con
elusion of the subject, or to tres.
pas* on the patience of the com
mittee. Indeed said he if my
gard for the feelings of otherscould
P'wsibly permit m: from day to
day to address an assembly un
vnilhig to hear (of which unfortu.
nutety for this body, and for the
nation we have too many examples)
I cun foil the respect l feel fur my
seif would forbid it. But, sir, cal.
ltd upon to adopt a measure which
innovates on the established usa.
geg of the country, sets a prece
dent the moat dangerous and alar.,
suing, places the government u».
der the controu! of intrigue, and
m my apprehension, sacrifices the
sovereignty of the nation on the
altar of inordinate speculation, I
cannot, nor will not be silent.
Pass this hill—pursue this ex.
traordinary course of proceeding,
and it becomes the entering wedge
which is to enable a horde of spe
culators who infest the capitol, &
distract the nation, to triumph over
the virtue of the country. And I
do believe that the bill is supported
by a portion of this assembly with
a view to that object. Yes »ir, it
is-thc object pf some gentlemen 'o
establish a precedent «in fneor of
the Yazoo claimants, and I w>sh it'
to be understood. Can rhf.ve who
are willing on die prvseut occasion
to grant a privilege to Mr. Living,
siou unheard of hi the history of
this government, refuse with any
soil of consistency the same privi.
lege to oilier intruders who have
been removed from the public
lands in the same way and under
the i. reae law. They canrat, nor
it imw isarention tu do so.' Ht is
true, attempts hove brvu made to
distinguish the case Wt the petiti
oner from that of tha Yazoo clai.
mants who were removed from
land* in ij,* .Mississippi Territ&rv ;
but whatever difference there may
be m the origin of their claims,
none exists m the treatment the
individuals have received, nor can
any reasons he urged for granting
* a judicial trial in the one case,
Wihich are not equally applicable to*
the other. But, sir, we are told
that the case of the petitioner in
volves the very existence of our
free government—that he lias been
removed from his property at the
point of the bayonet—and that if
such an example shall be sancti
one d by the representatives ofihe
people, every man in the nation
b cemes a tenant at the will of the
l*i etident, li is not uiy purpose
to enquire why this case alouc
slioulj. produce so much excite,
meat when the removal of hun
dreds in the same way has passed
unnoticed ; but I will shew ia the
course of my remarks, that all we
have luai d upon the subject is
mere declamation, and that the
ieaiful apprehensions which have
6een expressed by some gentlemen
arc perfectly unfounded. As to
the appeals which have been made
to the sympathies of the commit
tee, and the charge which has been
urged of wanton oppression on the
put of the President towards tins
individual, they cannot teach my
feelings. However much i may
iod tor the people of New Orleans,
who have been distui oed in the use
ot the batturc, which they had
been accustoimd to enjoy ever
since it existed, I have no sympa.
thy for the disturber of their re- j
pose. While the legislative «nd
executive departments of the gov I
ernment have been using their best
endeavors to conciliate the alfcc- 1
tions of those people, this man has
. not been less busy in creating dis
content among them. lie has been
. the evil genius of the territory,
and when genii, men undertake to
. declaim against the conduct of Mr
* JtfFersou, and io favor ot hit inno.
cence, they should recollect the
circumstances under which he rc.
moved to N Orleans. It i* impos
sible that.any naan in' hit states'
; - |
% •
can believe Mr. Livingston lias ac
quired a just claim to the property
worth from half a million to one
million of dollars, the value of
which was as well known to others
as to himself, when it is notorious
that he in a bankrupt—a public de
faulter to a very large amount—
[Mr. Poindexter called Mr. Bibb
to order—Mr 15. replied, ait down
sir, I am in order, you are not ] —
'l'he Chairman, according to the
rule of the House, required Mr B. [
to sit down, and Mr. P. to state
in writing the words objected to, 1
which were “ it is notorious that
the petitioner is a bankrupt.” Mr.
B. had leave of the chair to ex.
plain. He considered himself with
in the strict rule of order. His
object was to shew that the silua.
tion of the petitioner rendered ii
almost impossible that he could
have acquired a fair claim to ttie
property in question ; that it must
be a collusive speculation, and
therefore that he was not entitled
to the peculiar favor of the nation
al legislature. Indeed, said Mr.
B. if I am not mistaken, he has
acknowledged the fact in his peti
tion, for mentioning which 1 have
been interrupted by the delegate
from the Mississippi territory:—
The Chairman declared Mr. B. to
be in order. Mr. Bibb then pro
ceeded to state, that whatever
claim Mr. Livingston had, might
have been submitted to the com
missioners for the Orleans territo*
ry, who were authorised to decide
on land claims of every descripti
on ; and that, if his claim had been
laid before them he would not have
been removed, pending a decision
upon it. The law (said be) which
required his removal from the bat
ture expressly provides that per„
son* holding complete titles w/rr//,
and the holders of incomplete ti
tles shall file their claims, and in
either case that they snail not be
disturbed in their possession until
the commissioners shall have re
ported to Congress. Mr. Living
ston was net contented with the
same privileges which other clai
mants enjoyed ; wkh tl.c h •■> ? tri
bunal, and the only tribunal which
others could appeal. But, sir, this
House is called upon to legislate
tor his particular case ; to grant
him a peculiar and distinguished
privilege which has never before
been awarded io any man in this
nation. And why l Because, hav
ing taken possession of the public
property, and refusing to submit
his claim to the commissioners who
had competent power and autho
rity to hear and determine it, he
has been removed according to
law, at the point of the bayonet.—
He canuot plead ignorance of the
law, and 1 repeat, that until June
1809, he might have filed his claim
*r.d had it decided before the same
tribunal, which decides on all mit
er land claims in the territory of
Orleans ; that if he had complied
with the requisitions of the law, ie
would not have been removed ;
that having failed to do so, he has
acted in his own wroug, aiid his
removal by military force Isas been
the necessary consequence.
But, sir, there is another aspect
in which tins subject presents it
self, entitled to the most attentive |
consideration of the committee
If my construction of the law for
I ascertaining and adjusting the ti
j tics and claims to land in the ter
ritory of Orleans be correct, it is
j more than probable that this claim,
notwithstanding it has not bs = u
liled, is now opening before the
commissioners. That law after
enumerating many matters and
things winch the commissioners
shall have power to examine and
determine, adds the power to
“ decide them in a summery way
according t<j justice and equity on
. all claims filed with the register or
j iecorder in conformity with the
provisions of this act, and on all
I complete French or Spanish grants ,
the evidence of which, though not
thus Jiledy inay be found of record
on me public records of such
grants ” If the petitioner lias any
colour of a title whatsoever, it can
be found of record, and therefore
is fairly before the commissioners.
That it was intended, Mr. Chair. I
msn, they should have the power
to decide on perfect titles whether
filed ornoi, is evident from a sub
sequent provision of the law which
auihuiuet them not to consider a
graat conclusive evidence of title#,
unless they are that such
grant is nriiher antidated nor oth
er wise fraudulent. Now if their au.
thority to tlec'de, is limited claim*
only which are filed, this provision
• is wholly augamry, because no mm
! holding an aniidaied or frauduhnt
Riant would ever thmk of fihagit
If then they have tiie power toex
amine and decide this case, it has
became their indispcnsible dutv to
exercise it. They were appointed
with the powers of a court, bit ex
empted from the formalities of
courts for the purpose of detecting
fraud and collusion, and of trust
ing in a summary way all disputed
claims to land within the Territory
of Orleans. That this claim is
disputed the commissioners cannot
nowf'oe ignorant, and unless they
have been guilty of a dereliction of
duty, it must be at this mo
ment either decided or pend,
ing before them. This circum
stance alone affords a sufficient ob
jection to the passage of the bill
before you, at least until the com
missioners shall have made their
report to Congress. But sir, ihere
are other insuperable objections to
the bill. While it is admitted that
persons holding perfect titles are
not compelled to file them, no man
can deny that according to law
the claim of every holder of imper
fect title which was not filed be.
tore June 1308, is forfeited. I. i s
expressly enacted that the evi
dence of such claims shall never be
admitted in any court of the Uni
ted States. VVhat is p r opostd to
be done by this bill ? Why sir, to
renew whatever claim, right or ti
tle the f>~ s tit!oa«r easy have had,
and which by his own act has been
forfeited. Is there any evideace
before the House of a continuity
of perfect title to the property in
question ? There is none, and if
gentlemen arc determined to sub”
mit this case to a judicial decision,
be it so ; but do not adopt the
provisious of this bill which in
stead of aeih©rising a trial o g, t |, e
merits the cEaku as it esj.
i.stg, rt-s* -.iu which k.vs itaro
been forfeited
1 his would id? an atl of in"
juflice to other Claimants, and
to the people of the United
States to which 1 trull a ma
jority of this assembly will not
consent. The amendment I
have proposed submits the case
ordinary judical tribunal
witnout adding to, or taking
from the validity of the claim,
and places the petitioner pre
afeiy on the ground he would
occupy, if the dispute were be
tween him and any individual
in the Orleans Territory.—
Does jultice demand that more
lliould be done ?* Certainly
not. The people of the United
States are one party, Mr. Li
vingston the other party, and
if the people of the U. S. con
lents to grant hitn a trial before
the fame tribunal which would
decide between individuals, j
I ask you fir, whether in i
common jufticc he can claim I
any more ? To grant him j
any advantage he could not
otherwise enjoy because the U.
States happen to be a in
thecaie, would bcaffuming the
principle that less is due to the
people in their aggregate capa
city than to an individual. The
truth is, that Congress alone
have the right to decide on the
claims of the nation, and if they
delegate the power to determine '
in this case to any court what
soever, it is an act of special fa
vor to the petitioner. Sir, if
the ordinary course were pur.
sued on the present occasion,
we lliould examine the merits
of his claim and decide upon
it by resolving “ that the prayer
ol the petitioner ii realonable
and ought to be granted,” or
“ unreasonable and ought not
to be granted,” Sc there would
be an end to the quellion.
When gentlemen undertake
to iffert that it is not within the
province of Congrels to decide
claims of this delcription, they
• \ finely forget that Congress a
| lone have decided all such
! claims from the commencement
’ i of the government, and that no
i other department has the pow
er to decide them. But the
! gentleman from Va. (Mr Shes.
’ fey) tells you that by the con
dilution the judicial power ex
! tends to all controversies to
which the United States are a
party, whether in the capacity
of plaintiff or defendant. This
is the fit ft time, fir, I ever heard
the opinion advanced that the
United States are suable. Per -
mit me to ask the gentleman
from Virginia, if the United
States are suable, why Mr.
Livinofton has not commenced
hisafclion againll them ? And
if Congress are not competent
to decide his claim, why his
petition has been presented to
this House ? [Mr. Sheffey
explained.] Mr. Bibb laid if
the gentleman abandons the
ground of the Liability of the
government I shall fay noth
ing move upon the fubjed. But
fir, Lch a doflrine is perfectly
incompatible with every idea
of sovereignty, and never has
been sanctioned in every coun
ty-
i
But, Mr. Chairman, the
great difficulties and differences
which havearifen in the pre
sent debate are the conlequence
of confounding the rights of
the flares which compose this
union, with the rights of the
territories; Gentlemen have laid
that according to the conllitu
tion, no man can be deprived
of bis land without a trial by
jury, and therefore the removal
of the petitioner from the Bat
ture without such a trial was
and unconstitutional. I
sdmit the corrednefs of this
; 4 iCtrine in its application to
the dates, but I deny it in rela
tion to the territories. The
constitution is a compact be
tween the states—the ordinance
of 1787 is a compact between
the territories and the United
States, and is to the territories
what the conftituiion is to the
(fates. Political Sc civil rights
are guaranteed by the confti.
tution to the people of the
states, which are withheld from
the citizens of the territories.- -
And, fir, the gentleman from
Virginia has yielded this ground
upon the present occasion, if
I have not mistaken the tenor
of his resolution. As I under
ftanr! it he proposes to appoint
commilfioners to decide the
dtfpute between the United
Slates and the petitioner, vhofe
; decision fit all be final andcon
| c, ufive. Now, I ask him and
j ‘ hc committee, where is the trial
I b x J ur y ? Suppofc the pro.
perty in dispute were within
| of a ft ate and had
not been expreffily ceded by
J the ft ate to the general govern
ment would not a proposition
to determine on the claim of
®ny individual to such proper*
i a regular judicial
I lr,a bc ohvioufly unconltuuti.
( ona ? Certainly, fir. And yet
until the present moment, the
right of Congress to determine
by commiflioners all land
claims in the territories never
has been questioned. It has
been the uniform course of
Proceeding ever since the com
mencement of the government’.
I could enumerate many i n .
fiances tn which rights are ex
>° <hc citizen.
of ‘ h * ‘* al " b y lh ' constitution,
which both the constitution &
the ordinance deny l 0 citizen, .
ot the territories ; but itisun- !l
K CCC Kr y r C °" 6 ' efs have king. 1
)-abfolute power, over the !
<crruor.es, and it the petition^
could not be contented wi»L
the enjoyment of pcrfeaiibertr
m the state—is he
removed to the territory of
Orieant, it was his own' act
and he cannot reasonably claim
a n exemption from such reftric.
lions as are imposed on others
The ordinance vests ihe right
in Congress to make any re .
gulations they may find necef.
fary for securing the title of the
nation to its foil in terrritoties
The constitution declares that
congress fhallhavepowertomake
all needful rule# (3 regulation*
refpefltng the territory or 0 * I
ther public property 0 f the
United States. Here is a grant
of power limited only by
the discretion of Congref*
—this conflitutioaal authority
for the laws under which Mr,
Livingston was removed from
the Batture, k which some gen
tlemen hsvc denounced as
conltitutional. That Saw wi*
deemed a needful rule and re<
gulation by those to whom a.
lone the right of judging wat
delegated by the constitution
—it has not been repealed, and
there is no legitimate authority
on earth that can make it un
constitutional by any aft what
soever. Sir, it is a needful rule
and regulation, because it is in
dispenlible to the security of the
national profpetity—without it
the public lands would be atthe
mercy of every speculator in the
country. Repeal this law —di
ve It yourselves of the power to
remove intruders from the pub
lie domain, except by acourfe
of judicial proceedings, and I
venture ro assert they never can
be removed. No man doe* or
can believe that a jury of irnru
derg should difpoflefs tbemfelves.
But, lay gentlemen, this law,
if constitutional, was intended
to operate oniy irnfce Miffiifippi
Territory again! the Yazoo
claimants.’ An examination
of the law will fhewthe fallacy
of this argument. Among the
offences enumerated in the
fir ft fefclion, against which the
law if, intended to ptovide,
will be found that of making
“ a settlement on or taking pof.
session of, any lands ceded to
the United States by a foreign
nation or by a state, &c. &c
Now, fir, what ceflion had been
made to the U* States by a for.
cign nation when this aft was
palfed ? The ceflion of Lou
isiana, and unless the law is con.
fideted applicable to that ter
ritory, this provision is whol
ly nugatory and absurd. But:
if any doubt remains on this
point it will be completely re
moved by refering to a nega
gative provision contained in
the last feftion, u Provided that
nothing in this feftion shall be
construed to apply to any per
son claiming lands in theterrito
ry of Orleans or Louisina whose
claim shall have been filed with
the proper commissioners."
(To be Continued)
BALTIMORE June 4.
The schooaer Fame, Davis, ar
rived here on Saturday last, in 10
days from La Guira. By tbi» ves
sel we have a confirmation of the
news of Caraccus being declared
free and independent. All the of*
ficers who derived their authority
from the mother country wereseDt
away. The captain general and
several officer* have arrived in a
brig at Norfolk. The friendship
of the United State* is much ceur
ted by the new government; our
citizens there are treated with
much civility and kindness. The
whole province 9f Caraccus is re
ported to have followed the exam
ple of its capital. The present go
vernment has reduced the duties
to 16 i-2 per cent, on imports, and
12 i*2 on exports, as also a reduc.